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Neal

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

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Neal

Why does Death Guard field worse plague marines than Black Legion (stubborn instead of fearless)?

They should be fearless (or every (yeah, Noise Marines too) cult marine should lose fearless, not just Death Guard). Stubborn is unnecessary special rule. Plague Marines in Death Guard should be exactly as in Black Legion (or tougher, not weaker).

So:

1) All Plague Marines back to Fearless. (Terminators too, but that should be obvious (if rank and file troops are fearles then Chosen Veterans shoud be too))
2) Return Armoured Companies.
3) Contagion Tower to 4 for 325 (just as in LatD).
4) Plague Reapers could be nice.
5) Legible stats for titans. Repugnant should have 3 proper weapons (and maybe tail?).

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Eradication of Earth's
Population loves Polaris

Why does Death Guard field worse plague marines than Black Legion (stubborn instead of fearless)?

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Fear is for the enemy, fear and bullets.
-James O'Barr, the Crow

Word.

All Cult Marines should be fearless, always.

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Neal

All cult Marines should be Fearless? Why do you say that? Because they are Fearless in 40K? Going back to their original inceptions, only the Mark of Slaanesh provides any real kind of immunity to psychology. Therefore, only the Emperor's Children should have a real everything-is-Fearless theme to it.

Looking to Fantasy, Khorne troops have Frenzy (which grants limited immunity to psychology) and Nurgle cause Fear themselves (meaning they are immune to Fear but not other psychology). Tzeench troops have no special fearlessness. In 40K, of course, the Tzeentch troops are under the rubric of arhiman and therefore are Fearless automata, oddly making them somewhat at odds with the tzeentchian archetype.

In 40K, therefore, it does make some sense that all four cults have claim to Fearless. However, if we are staying true to the background themes, it would be good to make the Slaanesh army "more Fearless" than the Khorne or Nurgle.

The issue I have with making the core cult marines Fearless and everything else Stubborn is that it produces the same oddity as with the current Chaos Space Marine codex. The core grunts are Fearless while your elite Terminators are not? If Death Guard marines are Fearless then Death Guard Terminators should be doubly so! So I'd rather just make them all Stubborn.

Nurgle and Khorne marines are neither as insanely uncaring of mortal danger as the Children nor mindless automata such as the Sons. I think it's okay that they might be Fearless in the BL list (obviously the BL cultists are absolute nutters) while the actual World Eaters and Death Guard are a little - not much - saner and their line troops aren't as fanatically Fearless.

Neal you cleverly took half of my argument to refute. The point I was making is that Plague Marines should be Fearless, but Deathgaurd shouldn't be.

Lord I, I love that you want to get into the fluff of the Armies, but one unit should have 1 set of stats. It doesn't matter where you find those Berserkers, they should be the same.

Fearless in Epic also doesn't really mean fearless, or immune to psychology, it means 'immune to blast markers'

Fearless troops don't rout, they don't back down, they don't become disorganized.

The problem with all fearless lists is that Fearless digs deeply into the core rules, rips them out and then says 'ok, let's play'

Its an awful rule, especially the hackdown part. Hell, Noise Marines are liable to stop fighting and revel in the feel of your chainsword sawing their head off... how are they immune to hackdowns exactly?

Berserkers would rather kill themselves than flee.

Thousand sons have no choice in the matter at all, they will run or not, but if ordered to run they can be hacked apart if the Sorcerer breaks.

Only Death Guard are liable to keep their heads on straight, they aren't scared of anything, and their dark humor and incredible toughness are to thank. If anyone should resist hackdowns its these guys.

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Fear is for the enemy, fear and bullets.
-James O'Barr, the Crow

Not to sound glib but perhaps the answer is to not have an army list that is composed of Fearless units?

There is nothing to say that a Deathguard army wouldn't have normal CSM troops in it as well. Also nothing to say that the majority of them wouldn't be renegade CSM or Nurgle affiliated CSM troops and that the elite of the army would be Deathguard and DG Terminators.

Make the DGs and the DG Terminators core choices and require the player to purchase two support choices per core. Or reverse it. Call them Elite, call the Support formations core formations and allow a player one Elite for every two Core choices.

The curretn Chaos codex talks about not all CSM troops becoming Plague Marines so it seems likely that a Death Guard force would have troops that were Nurglish but not Plague Marines.

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Right, what PG and Hena just said, they seem much more concise and less irritable than I do on the matter.  

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Fear is for the enemy, fear and bullets.
-James O'Barr, the Crow

Thats got to be a first for me.

Can we all note this down in a calendar somewhere please?  

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.