We've basically learnt to ignore them and kill the Tau attacking formations. Markerlights aren't much good if there's no missiles left to attack...!!!

Not saying its a good list but for lots of gm's

350 Crisis and SC
200 FW
200 FW
200 FW
200 FW
225 Scorpion (AP/AT firepower)
225 Scorpion (AP/AT firepower)
225 Scorpion (AP/AT firepower)
225 Scorpion (AP/AT firepower)
150 Piranha (AT firepower)
150 Piranha (AT firepower)
150 Piranha (AT firepower)
050 Markerlights
050 Markerlights
050 Markerlights
200 Hero
100 Orca
050 left over

Its not a serious list, would need some co-ord fire stuff/upgrades, just to demonstrate that you can get a lot of GM's!

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And that will never change.

If someone wants to min/max a list IT WILL ALWAYS BE POSSIBLE one way or another.

And there's no point in saying 'take out the Scorpionfish' as 4 Stingrays has/will have a similar cost and you get increased maneuverability with only the loss of MW.
What then, remove the Stingrays aswell...?

And I do note that just about all of us have called for a points increase for the Scorpionfish.

Just because a master at the game can write a list that on paper looks amazingingly powerful, doesn't mean we will all use that list and Tau will never lose a game again. I would never dream of using that list (apart from the fact that I haven't got that many FW's and Piranha's   ) just like I would never dream of using an all Terminator Marine list or an all Scorcha Ork list (and I love Scorchas) etc. 1 trick armies can be boring to play with and against (unless someone's only playing to win and then I'm sorry but they have my pity).

We play for fun, and we try to field playable, fun armies that will give a competative challenging game. I don't want to lose all the time and I don't want to win all the time either (both will become boring eventually)

How you play the game is as important (or more so) as winning the game.

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I total agree Onyz... but this is the playtest forum. A large part of the purpose here is to stop min maxed lists, powergamed options, 'ultra combo's', only one optimal config, etc. THe aim is to produce a list that say me, Tim, Joe or similar can pick up, design a good all round force from and not find parts to abuse.

The having fun playing forum would be the general one, or the bat rep one or whatever. There's nothing wrong with keeping stuff in for scenario play, but for the GT scenario all that has to be dealt with one way or another.

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I agree, I can't be allowed to win every game.

Interestingly enough I don't have a problem with Scorpionfist or Stingrays as although they are seen to have a lot of shots and can thus kill lots of your forces, but to be most effective they have to sustain and then cover becomes a problem as well as the lack of movement.

I do have a problem with Marker Light Sentries though.

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Hena - I never said "but most are fun games so it doesn't matter" so we'll ignore that comment. We play for fun but we also want to keep it fair (as I clearly stated before).
It seems your issue is as much to do with the Markerlight ability as the Sentry Turrets. Do you have a problem if Heavy Drones a dropped from a Tigershark and light up your army in the same way as a Markerlight Turret?

Cheap, almost impossible to remove and can cover a whole lot of the board from turn 1.

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You said in a previous post
'We play for fun, and we try to field playable, fun armies that will give a competative challenging game. I don't want to lose all the time and I don't want to win all the time either (both will become boring eventually)
How you play the game is as important (or more so) as winning the game.'
that along with other peoples statements relating to the number of changes proposed for all lists (vs the number that actually happen) often gives me the impression they miss the point of this section.

So statements saying problem/not a problem would fit. Saying 'don't try and fix x problem as its impossible' doesn't so much fit. It might be true but probably better to try to stop the opportunities for abuse first. Would you say the IG list can be successfully min maxed? Or even the Marine one? It can be extreme yes, but thats not the same as min maxed. Facing an army that can get good rolls to hit infantry and armour all over the board, can't be cc'ed easily and has few problems with terrain is just problematic.

Sure it could be some things are impossible to fix. The papering over solution is the hard cap aimed at 3000 point games, the final fix is the one that is supposed to be built into the Epic GT lists of limited units (hence no universal lists for other races and sub lists instead).

The comparison with other 'deep strike' units (arty, Warhounds etc etc) miss the point somewhat. They are point units to deal with. The sentry turret system can simply enable a massive section of your army to use its special ability. I was surprised to find out they could deploy anywhere, we were only using them as garrisons and that was bad enough. The Drone/TS trick I think is fine as its something that requires some effort and use of combined arms Tau style. Pus it has to face flak and ground threats that can kill it in a conventional fashion.

As to spelling I'm just crap

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General Plumer, 191x

Great discussion guys and keep it up,

Onyx, I agree with Chris here, but am prepared to have my view changed. In my game against Gary I thought that I had an elegant way of taking out two sentries by engaging one and placing a second within support range to break under BM from support formation in lost engagement and then being broken, move 0 and within 15cm of an enemy unit. Of course current rules state that turrents do not receive BM and so to clear the path for my more expensive and valuable formations I had to spend two further activations clearing my path.

I did have the option to ignore the sentries, but with the BL list that I was playing, my tactics did not involved trying to position myself deep with the Tau board half in turn 1, thus leaving the sentries would have exposed half my forces to being marker lit for the first turn and probably suffering more casualties.

On the point about the Tau Jump-Pack rule, I used the tactic of placing a second formation around the back of the Crisis Suits, usually Falorn Hope (Scouts) and then engaging with a second formation so that the Suits couldn't jump back into their ZoC thus pinning them in position. A second point was that suits are supposed to jump directly away from the formation engaging and at one point this would have ment that the suits ended up out of coherency again preventing them from moving. I have no problem with the Jump-Pack rule.

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If the sentry turrets are to remain individual units not a formation then why not have them bought as individual(25 points each)not as a formatiuon of 3.
This should have the effect of limiting them as it would eat into support slots to have too many.

Hena - Dropping the total number of special rules is not the solution to the problem you describe. The solution is to find simpler ways of expalining the rule that requires less words.

they can be deployed everywhere and that they require opponent to spend 3 activations to remove 50 points worth to get rid of.

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You are quite correct Onyx, I have been suffering from the Dobbsy syndrome with regard to both Tau and Nids for the past year, but have watched with interest some of the discussions. I refuse to start baasing and painting my Tau until the list is published.

One game is never enough to form a true opinion and I was playing semi-blind as I declined Gary's run through of everything as time was already tight for the game.

Please correct me if I get anything wrong in the following. If a formation is lit up by Markerlights, a guided missile does not need line of sight to fire. So far I have no problems with this. I have no problem with the Tau pushing formations forward to place the enemy under markerlights to gain the bonus and allow indirect fire. I just don't like the free drop, no BM and they are worth next to nothing so your best option is to effectively leave them along and only shoot at them if there is nothing else in range whilst allowing your opponent to sustain at you.

Gary played with a balanced list and I feel that if I had rolled better on 4 or 5 occasions (1 Stategy and 4 Activation (1 a SC re-roll)) the game was mine for the taking.

If I remember correctly Sentries were added to the list because FW produced a model for them, not because there was a perceived need for them in the list. I would urge for the sentries to be dropped from the tournament list and left for scenarios.

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Hena - Dropping the total number of special rules is not the solution to the problem you describe. The solution is to find simpler ways of expalining the rule that requires less words.

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I've played against Gary's Tau on two occasions with my guard. His list was similar to the one used here.

The first time I tried to take out the sentries and the second time I just ignored them. I think we have both won a game but I could be wrong!

I think DptDexy's suggestion of purchasing them singly may be worth a try, otherwise they probably need to cost more for what they give the Tau.