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Manticore

zap123

Post subject: Manticore

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:14 am

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Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:47 am
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Location: Brisbane, Australia

I really don't like messing with classic units...we already tried to come up with something for Manticores that wasn't uber and didn't replicate something that already existed and ended up back to the classic rules. If you really, really have to play a Marine army that is arty heavy the book already caters for it.......just pick Iron Hands.

The Whirlwind is perfectly fine as the main artillery unit for an army that really doesn't use artillery. Individual armies are supposed to be real good at some things and bad at others....Marines are not supposed to be good at bombardment. If we mess with armies so they all do everything well we'll end up with Epic40K. If we "fix" the Whirlwind then we need to "fix" the Mole Mortar and Thudd Gun, then the Chimera that doesn't match the fluff any more, then the Warp Hunter cause it sucks, then the Tempest because its' too good, then the Bowel Burner for the same reason, then the Vindicator 'cause no one uses them, then.......well, you should get the picture by now.

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Warhead

Post subject: Manticore

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:39 am

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Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:51 am
Posts: 2785
Location: Nr Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom

I do get the picture, I just don't see what's wrong with it.

When GW turned its back on Epic and by the time I eventually found NetEpic I had made some 'modest' changes to 'some' of the units that just didn't suit the gamers in our group. (This may not be the same with every group.)

As long as game balance isn't sacrificed and all the players agree then what's so difficult.

I don't like complication either (hard enough trying to remember everything else in a battle) but I think small changes do not have to complicate things and in some cases can actually simplify overly complex units. (As NetEpic has done in many cases)

I agree with you in that some armies are less better at some things than others and this is how it should be. I'm not suggesting this should be changed and would argue against it too.

I just don't see why we should have to stick with sucky units because they have always sucked and we have never done it any other way. Surely by increasing the gamers choice of units you make the game more diverse.

As for selling my units (as mentioned previously) if I don't like them?.. What! After all the time it's taken to collect them and paint them not to mention all the battles... I'd rather use my dangly bits for shark bate mate.

Ok, I can understand that some people are horrified by changing things but I've always got a buzz from tinkering with the game. (Though I must admit it may be that people are more horrified with 'me' changing things... dangerous subversive that I am... ah well.)

Anyway, I hope to attempt a battle report (Kajonga's now firmly on the chopping block) using Manticores that can fire each turn. (How do you attach photo's from your computer to the report? Do you need to stick them on a web site or something first? I've tried blue-tack but it's no good... help anyone.)

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scream

Post subject: Manticore

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:51 am

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Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2003 3:18 pm
Posts: 1619
Location: France

For the pictures, you'll need to upload them somewhere, there is a lot of website that offer free pictures hosting like gmail picasa (you'll need a gmail account), imageshack.us or ... Try to reduce pics size to something like 800*600 or 1024*768 and reduce quality (at 80% quality you can't really see difference with 100%) so they will be loaded faster in the browser.

About whirwinds, maybe giving them a -1 TSM could be enough

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Warhead

Post subject: Manticore

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:32 pm

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Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:51 am
Posts: 2785
Location: Nr Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom

Hi Scream,

Thanks for the help, I'll give it a try.

Whirlwinds with -1TSM? Yeah I could live with that.

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zap123

Post subject: Manticore

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:48 pm

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Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:47 am
Posts: 3065
Location: Brisbane, Australia

(Warhead @ Jun. 10 2008,07:39)

QUOTE

Ok, I can understand that some people are horrified by changing things but I've always got a buzz from tinkering with the game. (Though I must admit it may be that people are more horrified with 'me' changing things... dangerous subversive that I am... ah well.)

I'm far from horrified at changing things.....you'll see plenty of evidence to the contrary if you go for a troll. If something is broke I'm all for fixing it. Also more than cool with adding the new stuff that has come along since the "good old days" and there's still plenty of scope to tinker there. At the same time I think we do need to suppress the urge to fix every unit in the game that isn't quite as good as some other unit. That is a really slippery slope.

I'm also pretty sure the designers intention was for the Whirlwind to "suck". It is a less than subtle hint that a Marine army should concentrate on what it is best at.

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Warhead

Post subject: Manticore

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:44 am

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Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:51 am
Posts: 2785
Location: Nr Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom

Sorry zap if that last comment seemed to be aimed at you. (A case of over stimulated mind causing friendly fire.) I was mostly thinking of a gamer here (A hard core Chaos player... high maintenance... you know the type.)

Yes I can agree with and would defend most of what you have just said zap, to a degree... and I eagerly look forward to seeing some more of the stuff on this site with great interest.

However, as to the designers intentions... I can't quite imagine it... or can I...

(The following is just for laughs and not aimed at anyone. Even the Chaos player.)

Games Workshop Epic Design Central (or whatever it's called)

'Hey Bob, what'cha working on?..'

'Hey Rob, I've been tasked with designing a line of literally crap stuff for every army as a subtle and yet necessary way of guiding our budding gamers into using the army lists properly, damit!'

'Won't they catch on?..'

'Nah, we make the models look cool and once they buy them it's too late. By the time they actually get around to using them years have past.'

'Wow, that's great Bob, say Hi to the wife for me...'

Or perhaps it should actually be in the background fluff for whirlwinds and all the other dross that there is a Forge World solely designed to churn out inferior tanks and stuff just because of some ancient typo (or dyslexic servitor) and no one can remember what the proper instructions should be.

'Hey, it says here on your Order Form we're to make a million crappy units so that's just what your gona' get! OK?!..'

So Manticores eh?.. Comments?.. Anyone?..

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primarch

Post subject: Manticore

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:16 am

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Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA

Hi!

My usual approach to this is to include the variants for such units in the optionals book. This means people whom wish to use them as the were originally can do so and those whom don't use the alternate stats from the optionals book.

In netepic, you get to make and it your cake too..... :;):

Primarch

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Warhead

Post subject: Manticore

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:46 am

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Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:51 am
Posts: 2785
Location: Nr Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom

Hi Primarch,

That's fine by me. I just hope to get new ideas from you good people that beats or fits better than anything I have managed to come up with.

Anyway, have a photo as I have just managed to sort a free picture hosting and now know what a URL is thanks to scream. Spot on advice, thanks. Sorry guys but this is (hopefully) just the start.

Of course the Eldar Knights didn't win!..

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My head is full of War...

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Dwarf Supreme

Post subject: Manticore

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:21 pm

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Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 8:45 pm
Posts: 11149
Location: Canton, CT, USA

Really nice paint job on the Bright Stallions. :cool:

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Warhead

Post subject: Manticore

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:39 pm

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Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:51 am
Posts: 2785
Location: Nr Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom

Cheers...

Not one to tire of showing off... Here, have another two pictures. (I promise that unless asked I will not put any more pics on this post. I might even let someone else get a word in... maybe.)

Eldar Fire Storm Knight Squadron.

Tyranid Hive Tyrant.

Why not check out the other picture (Dark Destroyer and Tower Eldar Knights) on the other Post (Snap Firing Chaos Daemons) and the Battle Report I put on this morning. Not well painted or photographed (First attempt to document a battle in full.) Any feedback welcome.

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scream

Post subject: Manticore

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:59 pm

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Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2003 3:18 pm
Posts: 1619
Location: France

Please, open a thread in the appropriate section to post pics of your nice eldar units, posting these in the Manticore thread is not the right place

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Warhead

Post subject: Manticore

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:38 pm

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Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:51 am
Posts: 2785
Location: Nr Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom

Sorry, your right. Apologies.

:blush:

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zap123

Post subject: Manticore

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:17 am

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Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:47 am
Posts: 3065
Location: Brisbane, Australia

But they look cool

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Warhead

Post subject: Manticore

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:07 am

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Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:51 am
Posts: 2785
Location: Nr Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom

I duno' I've had more time to look at others stuff on TacComm and 'Onix' is awesome... I've only started in the past two years to attempt serious painting but some of the stuff on this site is just mind numbingly brilliant... (Very humbling)

Anyway, Manticores, Whirlwinds and any other 'sucky' unit...
I think from the above process and wealth of ideas this 'thread' (still getting used to jargon and site rules) has caused, shows gamers are quite happy to try out new stuff and can always change it back if it doesn't suit.

I like to try to keep true to the units original rules (Manticore - 3x Templates and reloads) and prefer not to make the change too complicated. Which is why I would prefer to only increase the Manticores TSM.

Also if I can find a real life comparison then I feel it gives the reason for the change more weight. Whirlwinds remind me of the TOW M113 APC from modern day warfare and the Manticore the soviet WWII Katyusha rocket truck.

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Warhead

Post subject: Manticore

Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:49 am

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Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:51 am
Posts: 2785
Location: Nr Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom

I play tested the Maticores while the site was being updated and found I didn't like the 'fires every turn' suggestion. There is nothing at present that the Manticore can provide that is not done better by another artillery unit. Griffons lose on range but do a better job of killing light units.

Below is the Manticore description from the old SM and Codex Titanicus books. Skip it if you want.

B]Manticore Rocket Launcher[/B]

The Manticore is a lightly armoured support weapon which carries a potent barrage weapon, a rack of Storm Eagle rockets. The Manticore must be reloaded after each time it fires. As it takes a complete turn to reload, this means it is vitally important to decide when to use the missiles because once you launch them you won't be able to fire the next go! You may move and reload the Manticore in the same turn however, so it does give you the opportunity to reposition ready to fire for your next turn.
When a battery of Manticores is fired you may either choose to have them all fire at the same target in which case a single barrage template is used and all of the Manticores' barrage points are added together, or you may have them fire at individual targets, in which case a single barrage template is used for each Manticore in the battery. If the Manticores fire separately, however, each barrage template that is placed after the first must be positioned so that the edge of the template is touching the edge of a template from another Manticore in the same battery.

The main points I see are that Manticores may combine their barrage points into one 6cm barrage template or fire individually but linking each 6cm barrage template and the fact that they have to reload on the next turn once fired.I don't think these points should be changed as they are unique to the Manticore.

What if when the Manticores combine their barrages they also increase the power of the barrage. Ok, I know they already do this with combined BP's but 18BP's do not work, after a 2+ to hit is reached you can't increase it further so 8BP's are wasted. Increasing the template size doesn't work either as Griffons already have a 12cm template AND ignore cover so why take a 12cm template slinging Manticore.

So how about this... you get a +1 to hit and additional -1TSM per Manticore combined in the battery.

Individual Fire - One Manticore - 4+ to hit, -0TSM, 6cm Template, templates must touch other Template in battery.
Combined Fire - Two Manticores - 3+ to hit, -1TSM, 6cm Template.
Combined Fire - Three Manticores - 2+ to hit, -2TSM, 6cm Template.

This would stay true to the original idea of the Manticore but it would also make it a worth while unit as it would be able to modify it's firing to the changes of battle. I also think it's an easy to remember fix. You get a +1 to hit and additional -1TSM per Manticore combined in the battery. Easy!

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