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Black Legion review
Nicodemus
 Post subject: Black Legion review
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:29 am 
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Obliterators problem is that they can hide in cover and in infantry (so +1 to hit and you have to get rid of lots of other infantry to shut them out). And 3 AA shots?

Now that we have new champion we could finally get that AA-tank to chaos. Rhino with Havoc launcher, Traitor Hydra or Chaos Hunter or some other Rhino hulled AA-tank. GW will not give us AA-tank so we have to do it ourselves.

Obliterators could just be groundshooters without AA. Obliterators have same weapons as Havocs, why Havocs dont have AA and Oblis do?

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Magarch
 Post subject: Black Legion review
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:31 am 
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That's exactly the point. If you remove the AA ability from Obliterators, then they become "acceptable".  :D

I think they may also have a too high FF (a 3+ would be enough, in fact - CC ability would represent their "morphing weapons" that aren't just limited to ranged ones) but they would be more OK for their price.

AA on Infantry (and three AA attacks, moreover) is just too nasty, especially in well protected infantry formations.


(Irondeath @ Apr. 29 2008,20:19)
QUOTE

Well, I do.

Though it?s mostly Daemonic Beasts, that Infiltrator abiltiy is just sooo handy vs. IG.

Meat Shield is really a secondary consideration to me, assault boost being the primary. Seperate formations would open a can of worms, I suggest you cook up some house rules and test them to see what I mean.

In he long run, there are other issues though: With E:As predominance of FF over CC, Berzerkers and Bloodletters are the weakest choices in their respective categories.

Since Bloodletters can, however, be substituted by Daemonic Beasts if they can?t contact the enemy (and DBs look suspiciously like khornate Fleshhounds), it is less of a problem with them.

Berzerkers are underpowered though,  and could use either 2xCC4+ or the more powerful   Infiltrator ability.

All in the long run, of course.


It's true I really dislike the current daemon summoning - it makes me remember the way it works in W40k too much while it's not representing at all Epic scale daemon summoning (to me). I just don't understand why making summoning rules that different from the core rules (I mean, we talk about units you can "teleport" within a formation while not really belonging to it). And since they work so differently, that means the true price of a formation protected/supported by many daemons isn't the "true one" for the "Break their Moral" objective. Oh well, I guess it's just me.

Another trouble (to me again, heh) is that I find daemon Armor is far too good in comparison with marines, while it's not entirely justified. Their demonic nature comes mainly from the Invulnerable Save rule, then why giving them in addition the armor of a Power Armor ? I mean, plaguebearers even more resilient than Plague Marines, that's not even the case in W40k. So why such a high Armor ? That's why they are so good while used as "daemonic meat shields", after all.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Black Legion review
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:07 pm 
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GW will not give us AA-tank so we have to do it ourselves.


What's wrong with adopting a Chaos Hunter?

Why the need to make up your own AA tank when there's already a loyalist equivilent?

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: Black Legion review
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:10 pm 
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Nothing. Chaos Hunter would be GREAT.

But basically we would still be "inventing" Chaos Hunter because "official 40K" does not have it. And I see _nothing_ wrong in it. I even proposed it in my previous post.




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Markconz
 Post subject: Black Legion review
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:13 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Apr. 30 2008,11:07)
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GW will not give us AA-tank so we have to do it ourselves.


What's wrong with adopting a Chaos Hunter?

Why the need to make up your own AA tank when there's already a loyalist equivilent?

Exactly. When there's a model available in the store, and when the chaos list is already using rhinos, LR, preds, (and hydras in the L&D!) it seems a bit crazy to suddenly make up a new vehicle that you can't actually buy.

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: Black Legion review
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:14 pm 
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I must have writed it in very strange way because for some reason everyone thinks I want to make my own AA-tank... But english is not my mother language so maybe it is to blame. You do read whole posts, not just one sentence?

EDIT: Markconz, good night! Dont let the bednurglings bite :D




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Markconz
 Post subject: Black Legion review
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:21 pm 
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(Nicodemus @ Apr. 30 2008,11:14)
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I must have writed it in very strange way because for some reason everyone thinks I want to make my own AA-tank... But english is not my mother language so maybe it is to blame. You do read whole posts, not just one sentence?

No just one sentence!  :confuse:

Sorry Nico, it's late at night here and I'm just about to hit the sack.  No time to read more than a few posts these days, and just saw E&C's comment and couldn't resist sticking my nose in.  :blush:

Will go away and leave list development to others until work lightens up... hard to break the EA commenting habit though...  :;):

EDIT - cheers Nico! Bednurglings... there's an unpleasant thought  :D

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Black Legion review
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:26 pm 
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Sorry if I misinterpreted you.

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Black Legion review
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:22 pm 
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The thing that I would like to change is that daemons are a bit too expensive. Or more along the lines that I would like to see more daemons played.

This would mean a dropping of their abilities (combat / save or both).

I don't really have a problem with any other bits of the army.

I find the point about Obliterators being infantry and hiding in infantry formations a bit strange. Is this because people are not used to seeing this. A hydra attached to a tank company is not seen as strange.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Black Legion review
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:23 pm 
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I'd definately drop the save of daemons to 5+ and make them cheaper.




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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Black Legion review
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:28 pm 
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(Nicodemus @ Apr. 30 2008,04:10)
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But basically we would still be "inventing" Chaos Hunter because "official 40K" does not have it.

Which means it doesn't go into the list.

We don't invent things for official lists. Jervis does.

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Magarch
 Post subject: Black Legion review
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:03 pm 
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(pixelgeek @ Apr. 30 2008,15:28)
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We don't invent things for official lists. Jervis does.

Which is fine, since the Chaos lists aren't official. The same for all the others lists on TC.

The official lists are those in the core rules and in the Swordwind add on. Everything else are just "fan" lists trying to be official.

By the way, "Chaos" Hunters aren't really invented...I just don't see why Chaos Space Marines wouldn't use those since they capture many Imperial vehicles in the official fluff.
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nealhunt
 Post subject: Black Legion review
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:37 pm 
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Which is fine, since the Chaos lists aren't official. The same for all the others lists on TC.

The official lists are those in the core rules and in the Swordwind add on. Everything else are just "fan" lists trying to be official.


Everything on the "Rulebook" page of the Epic website is official per SG/GW.  That means White Scars, Speed Freeks, Black Legion and L&D in addition to core/Swordwind.

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kev101
 Post subject: Black Legion review
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:22 pm 
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i think that the deamon prince should go up to 75-100 points and keep his tk

its not his weapons that are the problem its the fact that it gets RA 3+ and a 6+

and he dose not die

in just one turn of one game my DP was hit with 14 out of 20 shots from a company of leman russ and did'nt even bat an eyelid this would be ok if it was a one off
but i have used chaos only a few times at most 10 and this has happened at least 4 times

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dptdexys
 Post subject: Black Legion review
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:35 pm 
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Kev101,don't forget the DP only gets the invulnerable if he,'s the supreme commander.
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