Tactical Command | View topic

Page 4 of 8

[ 110 posts ]

Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 Next

View unanswered posts | View active topics View unread posts | View new posts | View your posts

Enabling GW

pixelgeek

Post subject: Enabling GW

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:45 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:10 pm
Posts: 2642
Location: Edmonton, Alberta

(zombocom @ Apr. 27 2008,12:18)

QUOTE

I still honestly have no idea what you mean by "support".

You listed pretty much everything

You yourself were an army champion, and I presume you must have enjoyed it at some point?

Not really no.

_________________
Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Top

pixelgeek

Post subject: Enabling GW

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:46 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:10 pm
Posts: 2642
Location: Edmonton, Alberta

(Hena @ Apr. 27 2008,12:31)

QUOTE

Hard to be common knowledge, when that information isn't available publicly.

Jervis stated publicly that SG was making a profit

_________________
Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Top

zombocom

Post subject: Enabling GW

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:47 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5569

(pixelgeek @ Apr. 27 2008,20:45)

QUOTE

Not really no.

Then why on earth did you ever agree to do it in the first place?

Is this the reason the chaos lists have been stagnant for so long? Because you didn't enjoy editing the lists? If so then that's pretty inconsiderate of you. If you didn't have the inclination to work on the lists then you should have let people know a lot sooner so someone else could take over.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

Top

zombocom

Post subject: Enabling GW

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:49 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5569

(pixelgeek @ Apr. 27 2008,20:45)

QUOTE

(zombocom @ Apr. 27 2008,12:18)

QUOTE

I still honestly have no idea what you mean by "support".

You listed pretty much everything

So the support we're not getting is:

The rules that just got updated...

The army lists which get continually updated by people who enjoy doing so..

and the model range which is the largest available 6mm range.

I don't understand what you're complaining about.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

Top

Mephiston

Post subject: Enabling GW

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:50 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:52 pm
Posts: 4262

I really wish I hadn't bothered reading this thread. In fact I think I'll add PG to my ignore list.

Top

Magarch

Post subject: Enabling GW

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:58 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:16 pm
Posts: 81
Location: Belgium

(pixelgeek @ Apr. 27 2008,20:14)

QUOTE

I asked him and I'll ask you: how does that change your situation at all?

It changes a lot of things ; mostly, newcomers at my club won't be able to build one of the "official" armies from the GW web shop. Second hand armies will be rarer, and prices on Ebay and alike will be higher. And that, I don't want it to happen 'cause well, I like the game and don't want to see it totally dead.

Sure, GW support should be better than now, but there's STILL some kind of support. They didn't leave utterly the game yet, like you're saying.

About Chaos models, sad to say it but yes, it wasn't really interesting to make special models for them - since demon engines are included in a very specific list not really that popular and that the most played are Black Legion alike, which can be made with Space Marines models quite easily (especially for the vehicles). So true, would have been nice if they casted more models but hey, it's not like we have nothing else to use instead.

Top

Moscovian

Post subject: Enabling GW

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:03 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
Posts: 6414
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA

My answer to you, PG... I think the reason why has everything to do with appeal. Every product has a certain amount of appeal that can't be easily quantified but is evidenced in its popularity, or in the case of Epic, long-lasting popularity. Based on the level of appeal, a company can choose to ignore other aspects of their business if they really feel the need to (or if it just never impacts them).

In the case of Epic, GW has created a product that has tremendous appeal to a type of game player that tends to be educated, loyal, and perhaps a bit obsessive compulsive. Because of the product appeal and the type of customer buying it one of two things has happened:
1. GW sees no need to support it the way other products are supported and end up abusing their customer base the way you described.
2. GW has never seen the need to support the product because of the type of customer.

Either way it doesn't matter because the product is out there and the customers are the way they are. There are ton of reasons to like Epic and to tolerate GW, but in the end we the customers simply like Epic and tolerate GW. The why doesn't matter really. It simply is the way it is.

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Top

J0k3r

Post subject: Enabling GW

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:17 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 11:18 pm
Posts: 876
Location: Edinburgh, UK

Perhaps Im part of the problem in terms of giving GW the mesage that epic is alive as ive only supported GW with one purchase from SG . The rest has been through Ebay or swapping partly because I wont pay GW prices but mainly because if I have to go through the inconvenience of buying online Im going to make sure I get a bargain; by contrast I have purchased quite a few fantasy things from GW stores as you sometimes fancy an impulse buy and the new plastic sets can be great value for money if you watch what you buy. If Epic was in the stores though I would be far more tempted to spend that money on my little armies. I will also add that I have bought DRM minis as proxies precisely because they are good quality and a relative bargain.

I occasionally wonder whay I dont simply move onto another game system altogether, given that I am not overly enamoured by current GW practice. I keep coming back to 4 main reasons:

1) The universe. There is no gettin away from teh fact that the 40k universe is amazingly well fleshed out and deep. The only thing in a similar context ive ever seen near to the level of detail is with White Wolfs world of darkness. Sure I could play seeds of war with "power troopers" but they wouldnt be the same as space marines. Maybe ill move if deep, fleshed out rules for each of the E:A armies is created in an alternate system, but I imagine that is liable to be viewed as a copyright infringement ....

And anyway E:A exists, its free, it will be supported whic brings me to...

2) The existence of a great community. By this I mean you guys. This website is THE primary reason I keep playing and modelling epic, I feel that i am part of a vibrant community. i know that whenever im in london or boston or whatever I could put a shout out and get a game sorted out because fo the critical mass of people here.

3) The legacy of Epic. Simply put it was teh first wargame I ever had ~15 years ago. I cannot think of anything that GW could do to epic that would take away the joy ive had and still get from epic. After all, what they gonna do? Come round and break up my minis with a bat?

4) Optimism. Were on version 4. GW knows they have dropped the ball in many, many ways. LOTR wont last forever. Im convinced that some time, in some way there will be epic the fifth....

ps- i should also add that the one surefire way to kill epic off is to give up on it. That would simply vindicate the SG management practice!

_________________
"Do not offend the Chair Leg of Truth; it is wise and terrible."
-Spider Jerusalem

Top

CyberShadow

Post subject: Enabling GW

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:12 pm

Swarm Tyrant

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9349
Location: Singapore

OK guys. This thread is starting to get heated, with thinly veiled insults flying around. I will not close this right now, because I find it an interesting discussion point. However, please all examine your posts before hitting that 'submit' button as it wont take much more to get this closed. (Note to Mods - Please monitor this thread.)

To get to the original point... The question may as well be (for me) why bother promoting or discussing any game online. I rarely step outside of my regular opponents (although that is happening more recently). It doesnt matter what game I play, whether that is Epic, Command Horizon or SciFi Commander, the fact is that whether there is a larger community, or support, for that game really makes less impact that you would think. If all discussion and online presence of all wargames disappeared from the web entirely, it would make this less interesting but wouldnt affect my personal games in a huge way.

I do think that the emphasis of the community at large is shifting a little as a result of recent cuts - and I am also adding to this personally with lists for races outside of GW.

So, why do I develop and support Epic and Tau? The most accurate reason is that this support is really a side-effect. I am not upset enough at this stage to stop doing something that I like in order to make a point and 'hurt' GW. I dont do this to help GW. I do this because I enjoy it. I enjoy the interaction, and the creative process. I enjoy the game and talking about it in many aspects. GW could be the best company in the world, but if I didnt like doing it, I wouldnt.

Perhaps I should turn the question around - If you enjoy the game, why does the lack of support stop you playing? If you dont enjoy the game, why does it matter what happens to it and why the emotional involvement? (Honest, non-confrontational interest. :cool:

)

_________________
https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond.
https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.

Top

pixelgeek

Post subject: Enabling GW

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:26 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:10 pm
Posts: 2642
Location: Edmonton, Alberta

Lack of support doesn't stop me playing but one thing that I think many people here don't remember is that most gamers don't want to build their own minis. Not a lot of gamers are also interested in modelling. A lot of people here are and are quite good at it so issues that many gamers will have don't effect many of the people here.

This all came about, for me, when I was thinking about how to start building up the Epic scene here again and the problem I have and have had for some time is that people look at Epic and think, quite rightly, that it is a dead system. GW doesn't actively support it and many armies have no figures or no new figures. And many have no official army lists.

The average gamer wants to paint and game and they don't want to have to build their own Obliterators or search eBay for Contagion Towers.

Heck, I don't want to have to do this and I don't see why I would want to bring in gamers to a system where people would have to do the same.

So I began wondering why it was I should bother to get people into Epic if that was the case?

At that point I decided that if I was going to start getting local gamers involved in 6mm sci-fi gaming it wasn't going to be Epic.

And it made me wonder why it is that the community continues to play the game and try to bring in new players to a system that has this sort of baggage attached to it.

If you dont enjoy the game, why does it matter what happens to it and why the emotional involvement?

I love Epic. I love the 40K universe. E:A is one of my all time favourite games.

And if GW actually turned around and offered support for the game I'd be one of the first in line to help promote it.

But they don't.

I'd love to be introducing people to the game but I can't in good conscious do so and I can't honestly see that I would have a lot of success.

_________________
Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Top

primarch

Post subject: Enabling GW

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:48 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA

(Rug @ Apr. 27 2008,12:25)

QUOTE

(primarch @ Apr. 27 2008,17:00)

QUOTE

I think the ONLY thing thats holding me in is the responsibility I feel towards the netepic community and the finalization of netepic gold.

I no longer play epic games in public places like I used to, I no longer try to get people into the epic hobby, nor do I "evangelize" about epic on the net.

Not really selling NetEpic there Primarch!

Hi!

Your a relatively "wet behind the ears" newcomer, so I'll be gentle.... :;):

For those whom known me a long time, through the many years on the net and in the bygone eras of true "epic editions wars", I really don't "sell" much anymore.

My comment on the netepic gold rules is to assure those whom care that I will keep my promise that it will get done.

Frankly I could care less how many "new" converts I get or not. Haven't cared for years. In the old days I has EVERYWHERE on the net, no matter how obscure, "evangelizing". Nowadays, I just post here... and not even much compared to my old standards.

Besides, who am I going to sell to? A handful of a small handful of epic gamers that exist? Not worth the time.... :;):

I like it here more becuase of the people here that I know and like chatting with. I enjoy more the "philosophical" debates regard epic than actual talk or playing, modeling and such.

Hehe, I tell you one thing, you are now what PG was once and what I was long ago....

.... just wait a little while longer....

...GW never fails to disappoint ..... :devil:

Primarch

_________________
Primarch

The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules

Top

Magarch

Post subject: Enabling GW

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:53 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:16 pm
Posts: 81
Location: Belgium

(pixelgeek @ Apr. 27 2008,23:26)

QUOTE

The average gamer wants to paint and game and they don't want to have to build their own Obliterators or search eBay for Contagion Towers.

Heck, I don't want to have to do this and I don't see why I would want to bring in gamers to a system where people would have to do the same.

Sorry but the armies in Epic Armaggedon aren't all the armies of the Warhammer 40k universe ; it's only about the Third War for Armaggedon and the Ghazhull Waaagh !, the Steel Legion and the Space Marines.

That's the same for the Swordwind addon, it is about a specific campaign with its own background and its own sides. If you stick to this, then newcomers don't have to search for Ebay or modelling their models to play THAT Epic Armaggerdon ; all what you need is on the GW web shop.

Chaos, Tau, Necrons, Dark Eldars, Tyranids...it comes after that and mostly from fans who just wanted to play "their" army - so they do everything for that. It's actually a good thing GW still sells the Chaos Horde so that Chaos players have still some infantry sprues as a basis for their armies - while there isn't any Chaos army in the main rule book or the Swordwind addon.

Complaining about this is like complaining about not having your own army in a game system while this one has its own background and fighting sides. After all, many of the lists here on TC are in fact "fan" lists, some trying to be "official" at all costs (and to be honest, I include the Chaos lists in these last ones).

Yes, it would be nice to have more models and official addons...But then, you can't satisfy everyone. That's it.

Top

primarch

Post subject: Enabling GW

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:02 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA

(zombocom @ Apr. 27 2008,13:51)

QUOTE

(pixelgeek @ Apr. 27 2008,18:44)

QUOTE

I think that if people want to change this situation they need to put GW in a position where it has to do its own work to support Epic instead of relying on the community to do it for them.

And as I said, if we stop working to make epic popular then GW will simply cancel the entire range.

They won't say "Hmm, epic sales have dropped so we should promote and support the game.", they'll say "epic sales have dropped. It's a dead weight, so lets cancel it".

And once again, why should I have to play a different game just because this one isn't "supported"? I like the epic rules and background.

I play several games that have been entirely canceled and aren't supported in any way whatsoever. Should I stop playing them even though I enjoy them?

Hi!

Sorry to rain on your parade, but GW has already pulled the plug... years ago.

That's why SG was "downsized", then erased.

That's why there is no support for rules other than fan based.

That's why there are no more new models, heck there isn't even availability of things that are OLD and could be made available, let alone new things.

Epic IS dead weight for GW. They have shown it in every way that counts. Even GW STORES are removing it from their own stores. Independent stockists don't bother getting it due to the ridiculously low discount level (that after expenses and overhead you LOSE money stocking epic).

WD support.. err no. Not even that.

Epic will NEVER be popular again becuase GW DOES NOT believe in it. They have never seriously allocated resources to make it popular (not since before 1997).

Canceling the range. What range? The paltry one there now at ridiculous prices?

I made a prediction not to long ago that the epic line would disappear by 2009.

No member of these forums would bet against me on that prediction. Would you? I'll wager you $100 (held in deposit by the forum member of your choice) that it will come to pass......

I'm not clairvoyant by any stretch of the imagination. But I KNOW GW and their business practices towards epic. Action speak louder than words. GW's actions over the last decade are enough for me to know whats coming in the near future for epic.... oblivion (and not the great PC game... :;):

).

The point is there is NOTHING you, me or any group of people can do for epic if the company does not MEANINGFULLY support it.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch

The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules

Top

primarch

Post subject: Enabling GW

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:03 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA

(Evil and Chaos @ Apr. 27 2008,13:53)

QUOTE

They won't say "Hmm, epic sales have dropped so we should promote and support the game.", they'll say "epic sales have dropped. It's a dead weight, so lets cancel it"

Zombocom speaks the truth.

Hi!

Read my previous response.

Anyone who believes GW has not pulled the plug already needs a reality check.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch

The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules

Top

primarch

Post subject: Enabling GW

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:12 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA

(Rug @ Apr. 27 2008,14:34)

QUOTE

It?s a brilliant film and those make amazing towers! Good find! The ingenuity and artistry of the Epic community never ceases to amaze!

Goes to show what a good state the Epic community is in! What say others?

Hi!

If you think that one example just justifies the state epic is in through GW's actions, then you don't know what support is.

If you place the bar that low for success or "support" then anything can be considered "okay".

I'm a VERY old hand at this sort of "epic chats". I see the same things recycled throughout the years.

Hand waving away PG's points won't make them go away. They are solid, but ultimately DIFFICULT questions. Questions we don't like to ask or answer, becuase to do so is to analyze WHY we do certain things. In this case support a company that does NOT support the game we like.

It's okay to say that one will support a game no matter how lousy the company is, becuase one likes the game. Thats a matter of choice.

But to in ANY WAY try to paint the current situation of epic as anything other than POOR, is stretching the limits of credulity.

Taking out one's "pom-poms" and cheer, "GO EPIC GO!!" a lot of times doesn't change or erase GW decisions. They decided it can't make the same amount of cash as 40k, thus they don't bother with it.

Simple.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch

The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules

Top

Print view

Previous topic | Next topic

Page 4 of 8

[ 110 posts ]

Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 Next

Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:

Enabling GW

Who is online