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Howling Banshees
Moscovian
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:14 pm 
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Stylistically, I *LOVE* Banshees (What's not to like about hot Elven chicks with swords?!), but tactically, they blow.


In thinking about it perhaps I have let the 'style' of the unit affect my judgment.  I kept going over it in my mind and really the only reason I like them is because the units look cool.  

Out of all of these suggestions my personal favorite is the 2+ CC.

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:42 pm 
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I have to agree that I am not in favour of MW/Lance for the Banshees. I agree with Moscovian that this 'solution' is thrown around a lot. MW is really only top end fusion/melta weapons.

I would like to see the First Strike moved to a unit description, rather than a weapon note (the Banshee mask paralyses the whole victim, allowing all of the Banshees attacks to strike first - in the background).

If that is not enough, then I would go with Infiltrate.

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Soren
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:42 pm 
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with ignore cover, Fire dragons are still better

with first strike, warpspiders are plain better

compared to Striking scorpions, give em same attack number and value, but -1 armor value and infiltrator.

so they are more fragile than scorpions, but can do nice damage even if the transports are wrecked (and can choose their targets) Precision strike banshees to havoc scorpions

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Mohawk
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:29 pm 
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i replied att SG but my 2c in short:

Banshees does surgery/ Scorpions use the chainsaw..
so no +EA.

I like this setup:
Sniper (represents power weapons vs armour, and doesnt make to much of an impact regarding targeting when restricted to CC, it does represent the acrobatic abilities of the aspect quite nicely)
FS to notes (should have been there for starters, the mask is not a weapon!)
Move to 20cm -(they have always been depicted as faster then scorpions)

This would make the HB a CC specialist vs armoured targets and Scorpions vs multiple targets - which is what the fluff and the rules always has depicted.
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Ginger
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:13 pm 
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if we move FS to the notes, doesn't that then apply to FF as well making them a poorer version of the WS?

The original idea was to reduce to CC4+ with EA+1, which means that the overall assault is improved slightly, but not as much as the Scorpions

By leaving FS on the mask, together with either Sniper or IC, it would also mean that the FF remained a normal attack, reducing further the effectiveness of the double attack but leave it better than units with only a single attack.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:29 pm 
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Then just give it a single attack that is more effective.  While one idea might have been to make it 4+ with EA+1 it doesn't mean we have to stick to that.  Whoever had the CC2+ suggestion hit the mark.  That combined with the FS move to the unit stats is a simple, easy to digest set of changes that can be playtested easy and keeps the unit functioning very much the way it was intended.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:06 am 
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While not disagreeing with CC2+, I think that moving FS to the notes also allows their FF attack to be FS as well, and I suspect the original reasoning may have been that this should not apply to their standard Eldar pistols. Doing this would effectively create a weaker version of the WS allowing clipping FS attacks, which I did not think was the intention here.

Some quick stats might illustrate the original thinking behind EA+1 while leaving FS on the weapon. Using 8x units:-

Current stats
CC3+ gives 16/3 or 5.3 hits on average

Enhanced stats
CC2+ yields 40/6 or 6.6 hits on average

EA+1 with reduced stats
CC4+, EA+1 FS could give a possible 4x FS CC hits followed by 4x normal CC hits, or 8x hits total.
However, unless they are B-B with 2 units, the second attack is more likely?to be FF, so it would actually look more like 4x FS CC hits followed by 2.6x FF hits or 6.6 hits total (the same as CC2+)
Keeping FS on the weapon allows the enemy greater potential retaliation post FS attack, and also means the Exarchs do not get FS attacks, both of which weaken the formation slightly when compared with Scorpions.

I agree that FS on the unit with CC3+ EA+1 is far too good. This yields 10.6 hits on average, and FS would have a good chance of wiping out a significant part of the opposition without retaliation.

The more we discuss this, I also really like Ignore Cover as another "baby step" that impacts infantry only and brings out the Anit-Infantry capacity that I understand is in the fluff. In principle, I suspect Sniper may be a little too far because it impacts all armour and is essentially the equivalent of increasing the firepower of the unit.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
OTOH, you could try CC3+, EA+1, MW, FS, sniper and call it a Harlequin formation (but that is another story isn't it Matt) :p ?:laugh: ?:D

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:01 am 
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CC4+, EA+1 FS could give a possible 4x FS CC hits followed by 4x normal CC hits, or 8x hits total.
However, unless they are B-B with 2 units, the second attack is more likely to be FF, so it would actually look more like 4x FS CC hits followed by 2.6x FF hits or 6.6 hits total (the same as CC2+


If some dont get into b2b it's a reality of the game. Not all CC units do. Clever management and placement needs to be used like any other CC oriented unit out there IMO. If you can get all 8 in b2b then you get your 8 hits. That's fair IMO.
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zombocom
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:31 am 
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Moving FS into the notes is a bad idea, as there's no way banshees should have FS FF.

CC2+ should nicely fix them and make them worth taking.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:40 am 
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(zombocom @ Feb. 08 2008,09:31)
QUOTE
Moving FS into the notes is a bad idea, as there's no way banshees should have FS FF.

CC2+ should nicely fix them and make them worth taking.

Yeah I'm thinking exactly the same thing as these two points.

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:05 pm 
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So then CC 2+ means they are the pretty much the BEST CC troops(to-hit wise) in game.... IS this a fair analysis of them?
I always felt Nids would have better CC being they are specialised at it and pretty much most of that army has 3+/4+ to hit in CC
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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:08 am 
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(CyberShadow @ Feb. 07 2008,09:42)
QUOTE
I have to agree that I am not in favour of MW/Lance for the Banshees. I agree with Moscovian that this 'solution' is thrown around a lot. MW is really only top end fusion/melta weapons.

??

... and power weapons...!

Besides, MW doesn't really gel that well for fusion/melta weapons anyway. Melta weapons are typically particularly lousy anti-infantry weapons. There's a fudge-factor there that makes all MW good against infantry, just as it's sometimes odd that CC MWs are good against vehicles. Really the only truly good examples are the titan-mounted weapons like plasma blastgun.

Anyway, cross posting from the SG boards (go there if you want to read my train of thought)...

CC5+
Power weapons (+1 EA, MW)
First strike in unit notes
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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:11 am 
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To quote me from the SG-Forum:

While Power Weapons usually give +1 EA with MW but all units with these accsess to (Characters) or are already euqipped with (Terminators) Powerfists.
And Powerfists tend to pretty wreck any vehicle and turn infantry to bloddy goo.

Powerweapons slice through heavily armoured infantry as through butter with a hot knife but are as useless against the vast majority of vehicles as if the unit doesn't had Powerweapons.

So MW would be ok for Banshees IF the MW ability would only work against Infantry. A short sentence in the Notes section would provide this.

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:46 am 
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And, to quote me, Multi-meltas are just as useless against infantry as lascannon in 40K. Epic requires an abstraction.

If you remind me that Multi-meltas used to be blast weapons, I'll remind you that banshee power swords used to be able to do some serious damage to a Leman Russ.

Since when are we so wedded to the frigging 40K rules anyway?? Power weapons are vicious weapons, just as able to slice through tank armour as terminator armour. Remember that "ignores armour saves in combat" is a game mechanic to represent the fact that power weapons chop through everything! Yes, in 3rd and 4th ed Banshees are useless against vehicles in 40K. That doesn't make it part of the concept of Banshees that we should base rules around, nor a reason not to give them MW in Epic if that will reflect their wargear appropriately. Any more-detailed game (2nd ed 40K, Necromunda, Inquisitor) shows power weapons should make you stronger/deal more damage. True power fists do more damage - but then note that in my suggestion you get only one 5+MW attack, which is less powerful than most power weapon-wielding maniacs like Terminators...

If you make it that Banshees have a anti-infantry MW, that opens up the floodgates to questioning every other MW, starting with multi-meltas. Keep it simple! I dislike the mentality that no cases of special rules should be allowed in Epic, but this isn't one of them.
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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:12 am 
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Multi-meltas aren't blast weapons since 3rd edition anymore. In fact: In my Wh40k-to-Epic Weapons table Multi-meltas don't have an AP value.

And 2nd Edition Powerswords had Strength 5 with +2D6 armour penetration...yes but serious damage to a Leman Russ? Average armour value was around 20. The only vulnerable parts for a Powersword where the tracks (AV16) and the sponsons with very good luck (AV17).

And yes i DO question the validity of most MW weapons.




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