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Streamlined Titan list
Nicodemus
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:09 am 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Nov. 21 2007,08:47)
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In fact I wonder if the tactical plasma weapon is to powerful being MW and all. Should it be 4+?

Worse than Scout version? :)

BTW could Battle Titans have just 60 cm 2 * MW2+ without slowfiring? (Longer range because of Battle Titan, and no slowfiring because of better coolores/reactor)




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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:14 am 
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(Ilushia @ Nov. 21 2007,08:47)
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(Tiny-Tim @ Nov. 21 2007,03:42)
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Sorry wasn't clear enough with my list. It should read:

Reaver Battle Titan 2x Quake Cannon & 1x Carapace Landing Platform
Warhound Pack 2x Scout Turbolaser Destructors each
Warhound Pack 2x Scout Multiple Missile Launchers each
Warhound Pack 2x Scout Mega Bolters each
Warhound Pack Scout Turbolaser Destructors & Plasmagun each
Skitarii Cohort - Skitarii & Chimeras 3
Flak Battery

That should read as a leagal list now.

This isnt' a legal weapon loadout. Titans must have at least 50% (rounded up) of their total weapons as tactical weapons in addition to having 1 tactical weapon each. The warhounds don't count towards this (They mount Scout weapons) but also don't have this restriction. You'd need a second Reaver or a Warlord to make the list legal, and either of them would need to carry at least 2 Tactical weapons.

Bangs head on table....



Several times....

Now I understand :blush: , back to the drawing board.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:14 am 
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(Nicodemus @ Nov. 21 2007,15:09)
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(The_Real_Chris @ Nov. 21 2007,08:47)
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In fact I wonder if the tactical plasma weapon is to powerful being MW and all. Should it be 4+?

Worse than Scout version? :)

BTW could Battle Titans have just 60 cm 2 * MW2+ without slowfiring? (Longer range because of Battle Titan, and no slowfiring because of better coolores/reactor)

Well 60cm 4+ is 1 1/3 hits when doubling, 2 hits when advancing, warhounds are 1 1/3 when doubling, 1 2/3 when advancing.

To slow fire or not to slow fire. It becomes then a straight alternative to the gatling blaster choosen on what sort of opposition you expect? Potentially difficult to balance, plus slow fire does require a set of tactics to make worth while.

Saying that slow fire is book keeping and the less the better.

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:44 am 
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I mean why does Warhound hit almost every time when Reaver would hit only about half. If you have to downgrade it (why?) then drop firerate rather than destruction power/accuracy. And if you want to make Support Plasma better, why not upgun it?




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Ilushia
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:53 am 
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Well, in essence the weapon hits better, as it shoots 4 times and gets roughly 50% hit rate on advance, where as the warhound fires 2 timess and gets a 84% hit rate on advance. In theory, the battle titan one should hit slightly more often then the warhound on the advance and about the same on a double, better on a sustain since the warhound's doesn't improve on sustain.

At least, I think that's the theory. It -is- weird when you look at them against eachother until you do the math, though. The big downside is that when doubling and shooting at something in cover the battle titan weapon goes to 6+ while the warhound is 4+. WHich i s a significant drop in firepower even with double the shots.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:43 pm 
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What would be wrong about having 3x MW2+ shots, if consistency was preferred.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:05 pm 
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(Tiny-Tim @ Nov. 21 2007,09:46)
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(BlackLegion @ Nov. 20 2007,16:38)
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With lesser weapons the Titans should be cheaper, off course :) Or faster, or with more Voidshields, etc...

In a sense we are proposing this in a limited capacity with  the Devotional Item replacing two carapace weapons but allowing +5 movement and extra VS. I would like to test this though with an engage orientated Warlord.

That wouldn't be the same. I want to field my Reaver with the cool looking spiky banner-pole for example :)

On a side note: I'm really against trying to balance all weapons against each other, so that they are all worth the same.
Perhabs youcpuld do that with some weapons, but other brackgroundwise more destructive (plasma destructor) or less destructive (VMB) could be assigned a points value.

Designing 6 or so weapons configuration "patterns" for each titan type ands assigning apoints value to each would be nice too.
Yes 6 not 3 because 3 seems to be to few to choose from.




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Ilushia
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:08 pm 
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Dunno about the plasma cannon thing. I've never actually fielded one, to be honest. Haven't seemed that attractive to me.

On Vet Princepts/Legates, I might suggest moving Vet Princepts to 25 each, Legate to 50. The Princepts have no special weapons associated with them and only add Leader and Commander. Commander's only modestly useful at best (Who really wants to activate over half their army's point-value in a single assault? Or wants their titans that close together to begin with!) Leader's nice for when you've got 2-3 blast markers on you at the end of the turn to rally back to 0, but otherwise mostly useless since it doesn't count for Void Shield regeneration. Hence, I think these guys should be quite cheap given their very marginal usefulness in the list. The Legate's more expensive since he gives you the re-roll and the MW firefight attack, the MW Firefight attack is more of the benefit then the re-roll is since with so few formations and almost all of them being 1+ INit you'll rarely be retaining or needing worse then a 2+ to activate even with blast markers.

I'd be somewhat more open to paying 50 points for a Legate then 100 points, personally. 100 points ontop of 850 to take the Warlord in the first place is pretty painful in many cases for a re-roll you'll rarely use.
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Otterman
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:38 pm 

(The_Real_Chris @ Nov. 21 2007,02:47)
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Apart from suffering a critical every game (arg, how can rough riders destroy a plasma reactor? Wedge a horse in it?) ...

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:56 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Nov. 21 2007,09:08)
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I'd be somewhat more open to paying 50 points for a Legate then 100 points, personally. 100 points ontop of 850 to take the Warlord in the first place is pretty painful in many cases for a re-roll you'll rarely use.

The last game I played, it turned having the SC reroll would have been very handy. I rolled a few 1's to activate Titans that had blast markers.  :(

I do agree that the Leader and Commander abilities aren't as useful for Titans.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:03 pm 
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(Dwarf Supreme @ Nov. 21 2007,15:56)
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I do agree that the Leader and Commander abilities aren't as useful for Titans.

Hmmm... leader allows you to repair an extra Void Shield when you Marshal; you use it to remove a Blast marker instead of one of the "pips" on the die roll.

And commander might be useful if that "Defender can declare own formations intermingled" rule in the Markconz Codex is implemented.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:33 pm 
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(Chroma @ Nov. 21 2007,11:03)
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(Dwarf Supreme @ Nov. 21 2007,15:56)
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I do agree that the Leader and Commander abilities aren't as useful for Titans.

Hmmm... leader allows you to repair an extra Void Shield when you Marshal; you use it to remove a Blast marker instead of one of the "pips" on the die roll.

I didn't know that, but then again I can't remember the last time I Marshalled my Titans. That's good to know for the future.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:08 pm 
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I have no idea where my long reply on plasma weapons went. hmm, if cs reads this I seem to have this happening quite frequently.

But summary of that post is

Slow fire fiddly/book keeping
But having a weapon with 150% of the power of another and slow fire gives tactical possibilities. Key point for slow fire is how well fire with negatives, as you will be doubling turn one.

You could have
scout 45cm, 2xMW2+ Slow fire
scout 60cmcm, 3xMW2+ Slow fire
Support 90cm, 4xMW2+  Slow fire
In terms of looking smooth, sadly it boost the firepower of tactical and support way up.
Blaarg wanted the scout plasma to be 3+ to allow that scaling, we all said no so as not to affect the rulebook warhound.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:56 am 
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(Dwarf Supreme @ Nov. 21 2007,11:33)
QUOTE

(Chroma @ Nov. 21 2007,11:03)
QUOTE

(Dwarf Supreme @ Nov. 21 2007,15:56)
QUOTE
I do agree that the Leader and Commander abilities aren't as useful for Titans.

Hmmm... leader allows you to repair an extra Void Shield when you Marshal; you use it to remove a Blast marker instead of one of the "pips" on the die roll.

I didn't know that, but then again I can't remember the last time I Marshalled my Titans. That's good to know for the future.

This does -not- work. The void shield rule specifically mentions using the dice roll to regenerate shields. And the Leader rule just says that you can remove extra blast markers. The Void Shield rule says you can use the dice roll to either remove blast markers or regenerate shields, but it doesn't say that you can regenerate shields equal to the number of blast markers you could remove ala the Necrons.

As the rules currently stand Leader does -not- allow you to regenerate more void shields.
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Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 1:58 am 
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(Ilushia @ Nov. 21 2007,18:56)
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This does -not- work. The void shield rule specifically mentions using the dice roll to regenerate shields. And the Leader rule just says that you can remove extra blast markers. The Void Shield rule says you can use the dice roll to either remove blast markers or regenerate shields, but it doesn't say that you can regenerate shields equal to the number of blast markers you could remove ala the Necrons.

As the rules currently stand Leader does -not- allow you to regenerate more void shields.

Well, yes it does and no it does not.

You are right in that Leaders do not allow you to repair more void shields, they only allow you to remove more blast markers.

And you are right in that void shields may only be repaired by the dice roll.

But if your titan has one or more leaders then couldn't you say that when you Marshal you let your leader(s) take care of your blast markers, allowing you to devote more dice pips to repairing void shields?  This has the net effect of allowing you to repair more void shields.

Of course, this assumes that you have equal or more blast markers than leaders and you get a decent dice roll.  If you are low on blast markers and get a bad Marshal dice roll then the plan falls apart.

Someone help me here, am I right on this?

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