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Streamlined Titan list

 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:13 am 
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Chris more or less played that army to death, and the end result was that yes being able to field lots of independent warhounds and warhound packs is -very- powerful. That's 8 activations which move 30, 3 of which have 6 DC and 4 void shields between them and 5 of which are 3 DC and 2 void shields. Trying to stop them all is... Pretty hard by my understanding (I know I wouldn't want to see it done that way!)

As it stands, if I weren't gonna field a Warlord, I'd probably go with 2 Reavers, 2 Warhound Packs, 2 Sentinel Cohorts and whatever I could find to fill out the other 500 points in the list. I rather like the list being very battle-titan centric, myself. It's not that hard to get a reasonable number of activations out of something centered entirely around battle titans, IMHO. You won't be getting a 9-11 activation count, typically. But then, you really shouldn't be. You're AMTL, not Space Marines!


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 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:48 am 
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Ok.

__

I have been making some sample lists on my sparetime (actually worktime, but who cares) and 2-3 Reaver seems quite mandatory. Either 2 Reaver + Warlord or 3 Reaver. Activation wise it could be better to field Warhound packs but I want Battle Titans. :)

Because 2 Quake + Landing pad is valid, I see no other weapon combination for 1 Reaver, so basically it is just weapon load of other Titans that have to decide. 180 cm of indirect macrobarrage is so good that no other choise comes even close IMO.

Plasmadestructor is wussy because of slow-fire, I dont see reason to take it for battle titan (slowfiring plasma is great for leetle hound).  Basically it is choise between Vulcan and Quake with me, when it comes to support weapons.

I would like to test:
Reaver, Quake Platform
Reaver, 2 VMB and Gatling Blaster
Reaver, 2 Volcano, Turbolaser (Or 1 Volcano to VMB Reaver and 2 Turbolaser for other?)
Ordinati
Doggie 2 VMB
Doggie 2 TLD

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 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:09 pm 
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Thanks guys looks like we've been looking at the same sort of combinations. My feeling is that as the army is likely to always face more activations than it has the configuration for each activation has to be optimised to destroy or break enemy formations beforethey can activate.

I agree that a Reaver with 2 Quake and Landing Platform will become a common sight for this list, however only one per army as to have two expensive formations remaining stationary to fire would restrict the ability of the army to advance and take ground.

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 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:10 pm 
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I'm not a terribly large fan of the VMB on battle-titans personally (I like the Gatling Blaster better due to its longer range), but looks like a reasonable setup. Only thing you really gotta watch out for is those pesky Guard with their Shadowswords and Deathstrikes capping your quake platform on turn 1! Never a nice thing to have happen (Well, not for you anyway!)

The other reason I think the 'all warhound' army is kinda lame is that it really seems to go against the background material of the army. What little of it there is claims that the battle titans are the backbone of their military with the warhounds supporting them. Making a list in which arguably the best choice is all-warhounds (or warhound packs backed up by support formations) detracts pretty badly from their central formations!

I, for one, still think the Ordinatus ought to be completely removed from the titan legion list, and left for the Tech Guard to use. But that's a personal opinion more then anything else!

The other thing to watch out for in that list is you have 3 BTS formations: Killing any of the three Reavers will give the opponent BTS as you have it set up there. I might suggest either dropping the Ordinatus for something cheaper, or making the Warhounds a pack, and buying an  upgrade for one of the Reavers to make it more expensive then the other two. I think the lack of AA and the lack of screening formations will punish you, as well, as it makes your artillery titan much more vulnerable to assaults by teleporting/airdropping/planetfalling units, depending on how you deploy exactly of course.

But, it's a solid start for a list! I'd like to see your experiences with it! ^_^


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 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:46 pm 
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El Ordinatus is in there as cutting to much would make the traditionalists howl. Plus keeping the Armageddon one means the Titans don't have to kit up for TK'ing. Actually that is a good argument for putting them all back in as, well two of them, replace Titan configs at a slightly cheaper price.

The alternative is having it in an allies restriction, like the Titans are for everyone else. However allies restrictions are actually a boost for this army as you get to up your activation count without buying Battle Titans. If the armies to weak that would probably be the first boost.

An alternative second is 3 support per Battle Titan but that's a last resort.

As for two Warlords, no way. You have a Warlord paying 200 points more for a support config a Reaver can carry. I would ditch it for the reaver and get aircraft, upgrades, bigger formations etc.

Slow Fire weapons are good for assault units - ones that double, assault, sustain/advance and are costed for that strategy.

Tim - the list isn't legal :) You would need a second Reaver.

Scouts - I, as an opponent, love strung out scouts, you just shoot the middle one.

I think probably you have 4 basic builds with the list.

Warlord, Reaver, Reaver - 850 points for upgrades and 6 supporting formations
Reaver, Reaver, Reaver - 1000 points for some other upgrades and 6 supporting formations
Titan, titan - 1500-1700 points for Ordinatus, 3 Support, Warhound Packs
Reaver - 2 flak, 4 warhound packs

Your weapons fit would dictate the support configs. Biggest problem is speed, corner to corner would be a bugger, though I can't see anyone except a very long ranged army getting more than a draw that way.

I would probably go for an assault warlord with carapace ML, 2 Reavers (support and tactical) and one of the following support options
- Infantry, 2 flak, fighters, Tarantula, Sentinels
- Warhound, 2 Flak, Sentinels, 2 tarantula
- 2 Warhounds, Flak, 2 tarantula - though here you may as well switch a Reaver for Warhounds and play with the 150 extra points, but one less activation

Saying that I could go for something with the Ordinatus
Warlord with CML, Reaver with CML, Warhound Pack, Ordinatus, Flak, Infantry, tarantuala


Oh and though this may look restrictive I think that's good - get it to work like this then people can very easily trot out variants that build on it and, dare I say, introduce new Titan types.

Indeed I feel a competition coming on if people would be interested, something along the lines of design a Titan using cheap easily available bits that is easy to build and looks good. Winner can have an Emperor or something from my dusty collection. Hmm, shall give more thought to it, as well as what do people think for other Battle/Scout titan chassis rules?

Its quite easy incidentally to tweak around weapon allocation to build different legions by changing make is the 50% plus weapon type(s) and alter the support formation mix.

Currently we have the Legio (old) Vic who are a fairly solid boring bunch favouring ranged combat and so forth. Other legions that are more extreme could well be more fun and shouldn't take that long to do.

We'll probably be able to do a couple whilst waiting for the first one (once its ready) to be approved  :D

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 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:20 pm 
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And again i'm for including the 2-weapon Reaver and 2 and 3-weapon Warlord :D

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 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:38 pm 
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With lesser weapons the Titans should be cheaper, off course :) Or faster, or with more Voidshields, etc...




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 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:20 pm 
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Granted I've known beforehand that I would be facing Tyranids, the army I've been playing lately has been fairly effective:

Reaver - 1 MRL, 2 Gatling Blasters
2 Warhound packs, all 4 armed with 1 TLD, 1 VMB
Paladin Household
Castellan Household
Cataphract Cohort
Skitarii Cohort

Since you can't currently arm Warhounds with MRLs, I like being able to field Castellans for artillery. I also like taking Paladins for their FF/CC capabilities. I wouldn't mind seeing a slight speed increase, though.

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 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:32 am 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Nov. 20 2007,16:39)
QUOTE

(Nicodemus @ Nov. 20 2007,16:48)
QUOTE
I would like to
Reaver Upgrade
3500 points

That would give 5 activations at 3000 points, or do you mean these are the configs you would be keen on testing? As the enemy I would want to kill the Ordinatus, maybe a couple of warhounds, then avoid the reavers and go for a narrow win.

Huh? Where did that 3500 and Reaver upgrade came from? And what do you mean 5 activation/3000 points? I would count 3 reaver plus 2 hounds plus ordinati at least six? ?:confuse:

But that "kill the leetle ones, avoid the big ?uns" sounds quite default tactic against both AMTL and OGBM. Are there any ways to build Titan army that enemy could not use that tactic against it? (Well... 2 Warlord and 2 Reaver, then there would not be leetle ?uns to kill and only big ?uns to avoid)


Aircraft, do whatever
Ordinatus, strip out/increase to all variants
Weapons, fiddle, bring VMB down to 5 shots?
Upgrades, make support weapons (to disallow the quake reaver? Or also get rid of one tactical weapon requirement so it always it but hits elsewhere?)


I like Ordinatus, even thought I dont have model for it. So should I rest assured that if I scrapbuild one I get to use it with Titans? I dont want to use weeks to scapbuild something that "maybe" can be used in games.

If you drop VMB to 5 shots then I would not use it anymore, it is so big disadvantage to be able to shoot only 45 cm when every other weapon has longer range.



EDIT: Thanks for the idea behind slowfire weapons! I think I try that out. What would be usefull configuration? Plasmadestructor and some assault/firefight thingie and some tactical weapons? Warlord is so slow, so Reaver would be only reasonable platform?





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 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:42 am 
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Sorry wasn't clear enough with my list. It should read:

Reaver Battle Titan 2x Quake Cannon & 1x Carapace Landing Platform
Warhound Pack 2x Scout Turbolaser Destructors each
Warhound Pack 2x Scout Multiple Missile Launchers each
Warhound Pack 2x Scout Mega Bolters each
Warhound Pack Scout Turbolaser Destructors & Plasmagun each
Skitarii Cohort - Skitarii & Chimeras 3
Flak Battery

That should read as a leagal list now.

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 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:46 am 
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(BlackLegion @ Nov. 20 2007,16:38)
QUOTE
With lesser weapons the Titans should be cheaper, off course :) Or faster, or with more Voidshields, etc...

In a sense we are proposing this in a limited capacity with ?the Devotional Item replacing two carapace weapons but allowing +5 movement and extra VS. I would like to test this though with an engage orientated Warlord.

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 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:47 am 
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(Tiny-Tim @ Nov. 21 2007,03:42)
QUOTE
Sorry wasn't clear enough with my list. It should read:

Reaver Battle Titan 2x Quake Cannon & 1x Carapace Landing Platform
Warhound Pack 2x Scout Turbolaser Destructors each
Warhound Pack 2x Scout Multiple Missile Launchers each
Warhound Pack 2x Scout Mega Bolters each
Warhound Pack Scout Turbolaser Destructors & Plasmagun each
Skitarii Cohort - Skitarii & Chimeras 3
Flak Battery

That should read as a leagal list now.

This isnt' a legal weapon loadout. Titans must have at least 50% (rounded up) of their total weapons as tactical weapons in addition to having 1 tactical weapon each. The warhounds don't count towards this (They mount Scout weapons) but also don't have this restriction. You'd need a second Reaver or a Warlord to make the list legal, and either of them would need to carry at least 2 Tactical weapons.


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 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:47 am 
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(Nicodemus @ Nov. 21 2007,13:32)
QUOTE
Huh? Where did that 3500 and Reaver upgrade came from? And what do you mean 5 activation/3000 points? I would count 3 reaver plus 2 hounds plus ordinati at least six?  :confuse:

That would be due to me thinking you meant two warhound packs.

A better army than that would be replace a reaver with a warhound pack, get another activation and make one of the reavers the BTS.

But that "kill the leetle ones, avoid the big ?uns" sounds quite default tactic against both AMTL and OGBM. Are there any ways to build Titan army that enemy could not use that tactic against it? (Well... 2 Warlord and 2 Reaver, then there would not be leetle ?uns to kill and only big ?uns to avoid)


I tried lots to do a 'pure' WE force. Apart from suffering a critical every game (arg, how can rough riders destroy a plasma reactor? Wedge a horse in it?) the best I did was draw, and that was with Titans that had a points discount as they did originally. I guess now you could try a Warlord, 3 Reavers, 4 Tarantula but I couldn't see it winning unless they actually tried to fight you.

I like Ordinatus, even thought I dont have model for it. So should I rest assured that if I scrapbuild one I get to use it with Titans? I dont want to use weeks to scapbuild something that "maybe" can be used in games.

Yeah I reckon one should stay in reguardless just like other lists get titans, these guys get Ordinatus (I mean how do you improve on Titan allies otherwise?:) ). Whether its all or just the Armageddon one who knows.

And of course Blarg has yet to show all of his ideas, that may be a far more popular option and it will definitively have all sorts of units in it.

If you drop VMB to 5 shots then I would not use it anymore, it is so big disadvantage to be able to shoot only 45 cm when every other weapon has longer range.

I vaguely remember the debate around it, and these again are the numbers - Numbers wise turn one you would have to double for the same range so (VMB) 3AP, 1AT vs (TLD) 1 1/3AP, 2 2/3AT, turn 2 advance 4AP, 2AT vs 1 1/3AP, 2 2/3AT, and if sustain 5AP, 3AT vs 2AP, 3 1/3AT. Of course the TLD has a range advantage but I can see wy people would want the shots down to 5. - so its a close run thing.

EDIT: Thanks for the idea behind slowfire weapons! I think I try that out. What would be usefull configuration? Plasmadestructor and some assault/firefight thingie and some tactical weapons? Warlord is so slow, so Reaver would be only reasonable platform?

Been ages since I tried it with anything but Warhounds. I think I used to use a Reaver with 2 Plasma Cannon and something firefighty (can't remember if it was corvus, FF or Melta gun) in conjunction with either an Assault Warlord or Knights. Turn one double, turn two assault/support with the twin unit, turn three consolidate on the objective. The Plasma cannon gave an average of 4 MW hits, enough to break an artillery company or similar. If you have the slots making them support plasma. In fact I wonder if the tactical plasma weapon is to powerful being MW and all. Should it be 4+?

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