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Necrons 4.3
zombocom
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:35 pm 
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There's no way I would play a necron list that didn't allow solo monoliths. I only take 4 monoliths, but I really don't like taking obelisks, and it would simply ruin the list for me if they become obligitory.

Obelisks are an invention of the epic list, and are not represented in any other system. To make them obligitory, to suggest that monoliths cannot exist without them, is entirely against the fluff.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:17 pm 
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I take a variety of solo monoliths and reinforced monoliths...  Usually two of each or a 0,1,2,3 Obelisk reinforced pattern.  I'm not convinced forcing a formation size is the best way to go.  If you want to discourage a popcorn army and you are unwilling to change the stats, the only things left are to change the points per monolith and/or the availability of the formations.  

Points wise Monoliths seem pretty darn valuable to me.  Compared to a Land Raider they have about 1/2 the firepower but upwards of six times the FF capabilities.  They have half the movement but they can teleport multiple times within the game (depending on if they break).  They can't march but they are skimmers.  They even have better armor than a 4+RA vehicle which is difficult to find in the game of Epic.    Then on top of that they have a portal with can be used to bring troops on or pull them off.  The Eldar portal alone is worth 50 points (albeit it is indestructible).  Why then is a Monolith 75 points and a Land Raider 100?

I'm not suggesting it is THE answer, but clearly it is underpriced compared to other units.  You could run a similar example against a Storm Serpent (which has its own portal) and I think 85-100 points is a much closer cost.  Take the whole fear of popcorn lists into account and 100 points would work great.  People who want to field solo monoliths here and there can if they want to.  People who want reinforced monoliths could actually get a small points break.

Corey I know you are getting hit with a lot of suggestions and not a lot of playtesting, but consider it a sign that we all love you. :)

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corey3750
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:00 am 
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(zombocom @ Nov. 09 2007,16:35)
QUOTE
There's no way I would play a necron list that didn't allow solo monoliths. I only take 4 monoliths, but I really don't like taking obelisks, and it would simply ruin the list for me if they become obligitory.

Obelisks are an invention of the epic list, and are not represented in any other system. To make them obligitory, to suggest that monoliths cannot exist without them, is entirely against the fluff.

a lot of things are inventions of the Epic Lists.

This list represents a mostly awakened Necron ARMY, not some piddling raid force as is represented by 40k.  It's not a stretch that there would be a ridged tactical doctrine for force organization on that scale.  You see it in almost every list out there.

I'm not saying I'll do it.  If that's what I wanted for it, I'd have just done that to begin with.

Also... what is "internal balance"?  It's not like the army is going to fight itself.  All that matters is how it plays in actual games.

Hypothetical lists and objections are irrelevant unless there is a factual basis supported by actual game data.

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corey3750
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:02 am 
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it's funny how the 75 started with complaints that 100 points was too much.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:04 am 
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All that matters is how it plays in actual games.




Internal balance is 'how the units stack up against each other within the list, and making assured that all options are equally valid'.


To pick an example:


- Under the latest rules, Destroyers are now quite sub-standard, whilst Heavy Destroyers are very useful. Thus, Destroyers will now hardly ever see battlefield play. This may not affect how the list performs against other lists (Overall balance), but it is an example of poor internal balance.



Another example would be most of the tanks in the Space Marine list; The list overall is balanced, whilst most of the tanks are utter crap and are practically never used. On the other hand, Warhound Titans are overly cheap and have excelent synergy with the Marine army. This is an example of poor internal balance.


a lot of things are inventions of the Epic Lists.

I don't think there are any other lists that have a fan-invented unit as a compulsory choice.




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zombocom
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:41 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 08 2007,23:04)
QUOTE
- Under the latest rules, Destroyers are now quite sub-standard, whilst Heavy Destroyers are very useful. Thus, Destroyers will now hardly ever see battlefield play. This may not affect how the list performs against other lists (Overall balance), but it is an example of poor internal balance.

Othjer way round actually, it's heavy destroyers that got hit with the nerf stick, not the destroyers.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:40 am 
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Which goes to show that my memory has poor internal balance. :D

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:47 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 09 2007,05:40)
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Which goes to show that my memory has poor internal balance. :D

I would agree with that. :;):

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corey3750
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:20 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 09 2007,18:04)
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Internal balance is 'how the units stack up against each other within the list, and making assured that all options are equally valid'.

Thank you.

  It's nice to finally have an understanding of what that means.

  I think there is a valid choice for both Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers.  A unit of Destroyers would be useful for slaughtering infantry and light vehicle, but rather ineffective against Armored Vehicles or WE.  Heavy Destroyers are effective against LV, AV, and WE (6 AT shots is still a lot), and  effective against infantry IF you go into an Assault with them.  Or you can Mix them!  3 Destroyers with 3 Heavy Destroyers gives you a great mix of effectiveness and firepower.  3 AT attacks and 6 AP attacks (which can be used as AT in a pinch).

And for the record, I think the Marine Vehicles are great!  I love Predators!

I don't think there are any other lists that have a fan-invented unit as a compulsory choice.
 There's no such thing as a Compulsory Choice.  You either have a choice or you don't.

But just to be clear, I didn't just make these things up... I was TOLD to make them up.  I was instructed by Jervis to add WE and AV to the list.  In fact he first told me to add Aircraft too.  After he consulted GW about Necrons he was told that they NEVER use Aircraft, and so there are none now.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:28 pm 
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And for the record, I think the Marine Vehicles are great!  I love Predators!


*giggles*

They're almost universally rubbish. :)

 There's no such thing as a Compulsory Choice.  You either have a choice or you don't.

Don't play silly-semantician; 'compulsory choices' are common parlance in GW wargaming.

But just to be clear, I didn't just make these things up... I was TOLD to make them up.  I was instructed by Jervis to add WE and AV to the list.  In fact he first told me to add Aircraft too.  After he consulted GW about Necrons he was told that they NEVER use Aircraft, and so there are none now.

Noone's saying that they shouldn't be in the list, just that forcing Monoliths to always take Obelisk retinues is against the background, and against how they operate in 40k, where Monoliths don't have Obelisk escorts (Thus they don't always have escorting Obelisks).

Zombocom summed it up better than I:

Obelisks are an invention of the epic list, and are not represented in any other system. To make them obligitory, to suggest that monoliths cannot exist without them, is entirely against the fluff.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:37 pm 
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FYI for anyone Chroma's popcorn army squeaked out a win (less than a hundred victory points I believe) on Turn 4.  So the Murder of Monoliths might not be as horrible as many are led to believe.  I can't wait for the next popcorn list to see if it works.

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corey3750
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:57 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 10 2007,10:28)
QUOTE
Noone's saying that they shouldn't be in the list, just that forcing Monoliths to always take Obelisk retinues is against the background, and against how they operate in 40k, where Monoliths don't have Obelisk escorts (Thus they don't always have escorting Obelisks).

Zombocom summed it up better than I:

Obelisks are an invention of the epic list, and are not represented in any other system. To make them obligitory, to suggest that monoliths cannot exist without them, is entirely against the fluff.

There are a lot of things that are true in Epic that are not true in 40k.

Wraithlords and Wraithguard are not joined at the hip to Guardians.

the Presence of Dreadnoughts does not slow down the advancement of Tactical Marines in Rhinos to a crawl.

Revenants don't run in pairs

You can actually have a Vanquisher without having to field 9 other tanks first.

I could go on of course... there are a LOT of things that are artificial restrictions or links that are artifacts of the game.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:11 pm 
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I am so utterly against the idea of obligtory obelisks that I would simply stop using the list.

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corey3750
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:17 pm 
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(zombocom @ Nov. 10 2007,15:11)
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I am so utterly against the idea of obligtory obelisks that I would simply stop using the list.

well what would you suggest?

Aside from a points increase?  That would make taking the formations in the way they should be virtually impossible.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Necrons 4.3
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:20 pm 
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I suggest a points increase to 100 points.

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