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[OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
Chroma
 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:19 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 04 2007,00:08)
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I think it's because they're already a slightly better choice than Hive Tyrants on a swarm composition basis.

A lone Hive Tyrant is the worst Synapse choice there is, simply because it's a single model and can get "popped" so easily.

Should the Three Tyranid Warriors be 175 points to make them more in line with the Nexus Group?

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Chroma
 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:25 am 
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On Blast markers...

I'm glad Tyranids get them now... and so are my opponents!  *laugh*

I do think they should suffer the "shot at" BM; Markconz battle against the Squats shows the problem of the "lone Bug" thwarting an opponent... I can't see many being happy with that.

The Bugs should get Blast markers for all the "normal" things: get shot at, losing units, crossfire, teleport mishaps, failed activations, etc.  To have one exception in that list is going to be confusing and annoying to opponents.

It's how Tyranids *respond* to Blast markers that makes all the difference, and that is how I think it should be.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:40 am 
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Like I said, I'm working on my 'Nid "TO&Es" now based on the good stuff you guys are doing here.  I too think M/Spores should be more than just AA ... And BTW, in my Forge World catalogue, they have a model of a 'Nid Malenthrope -  What the Frakk is that ?!?! :alien:

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Chroma
 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:43 am 
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(Legion 4 @ Oct. 04 2007,01:40)
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I too think M/Spores should be more than just AA...

Well, they *can* perform assaults... *laugh*  As a "test" unit, I don't want them too powerful/versitile to begin with.
And BTW, in my Forge World catalogue, they have a model of a 'Nid Malenthrope - ?What the Frakk is that ?!?! :alien:
It's kind of a trapper/genetic sampler genotype... stings, paralyzes, stores, and analyzes prey creatures' genetic potential.  Hangs around with Ripper Swarms... will probably make an appearance in a Phase V 'Consumption' army list I'm working on.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:57 am 
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Thanks "C" for the good intell !  Look Forward to any updated Bug intell ! :alien:

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Dave
 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:13 am 
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(Chroma @ Oct. 03 2007,18:46)
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Why do we feel a group of Tyranid Warriors should spawn *less* than other Synapse groups?  We're talking nine to fifteen (depends on how you base 'em!) Tyranid Warriors here, surely they can drum up some followers!


Technically its 3 to 9 warriors (15 if you want to argue semantics).  I refer you to section 2.0 in its entireity ;).


(Chroma @ Oct. 03 2007,18:46)
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Allowing "automatic" spawning is definitely a way of reducing the randomness, and while it makes it easier on the Tyranid player, they know that they're always going to get "something" (we'll ignore the potential of broken/instinctive swarms not spawning here for the moment), they just don't know what, I don't think opponents will like not being able to do anything to stop it.

...

I think a Rally/Spawn roll is necessary for balance, and haven't, yet, been convinced otherwise.  As well, I'd like to see some battle reports with the "fixed" Synapse spawn point values before we move to much further ahead.


I think you can't compare the proposed spawning systems by ignoring the effect of broken/instinctive swarms here.  A broken swarm not being able to spawn as much or at all compared to an unbroken swarm accomplishes exactly what you are looking for when you say the opponent should be able to deny the ability of the 'nids to spawn.  Once more it does this without the rally roll.

Look at it this way.  If a swarm is broken the hive mind is going to spend most, if not all of its synapse communication restoring order to the swarm.  So given that we shouldn't allow spawning, or if we do, very little.  If the swarm isn't broken however it's going to spend all of its synapse communication to recruite some more brood creatures.  The iron will of the hive mind shouldn't have to roll to see if it can spawn in that instance, it should just get to.  The randomness should still be there though to determine exactly how many brood creatures come out to play.

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Dave
 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:15 am 
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(Chroma @ Oct. 03 2007,18:54)
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On Brood Nests...

I like how the spores worked, but I think these are an acceptable substitute.  Especially as they will go a long way in assuaging opponents as to how the Carnifex keep popping up like daisies.

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Dave
 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:22 am 
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(Chroma @ Oct. 03 2007,19:18)
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On instinctive...

I still find these rules overly confusing as compared to the other proposed set.  Bugs may not "break" but they certainly get confused and disorientated.  I think allowing them to ignore casualties from BMs while broken represents their outlook rather well.  They are still out their fighting just not with the direction to have them accomplish anything tactically significant.

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Dave
 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:25 am 
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(Chroma @ Oct. 03 2007,19:25)
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On Blast markers...

I'm glad Tyranids get them now... and so are my opponents!  *laugh*

I do think they should suffer the "shot at" BM; Markconz battle against the Squats shows the problem of the "lone Bug" thwarting an opponent... I can't see many being happy with that.


Agreed, I also think that the little brooders could do without disposable as well.


(Chroma @ Oct. 03 2007,19:25)
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It's how Tyranids *respond* to Blast markers that makes all the difference, and that is how I think it should be.

Again, yes. This is why I argue for no rally rolls to spawn as well.

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Markconz
 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:36 am 
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(Chroma @ Oct. 03 2007,23:18)
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I don't think Tyranids should break.

Neither do I so this is really just a quibble over the term rather than the rule itself.  We both believe in an 'instinctive' state for bugs and have both made a rule labelled as such, the difference is just in how we go about it.

Both my rules and your rules have tyranids 'breaking/instinctive' - meaning bugs become less effective than they were before they were broken/instinctive. However in both sets of rules they are still less affected in this state than other armies - so the question is not should they break or not, but how much power should they have when they do, and what is the best way to write the rules to reflect this?

Your current approach to breaking/instinctive is almost to define everything about this broken/instinctive state from scratch... an approach that requires many words, not to mention what seems to be an increasing amount of confusion and quirks (and I'm sure an extensive FAQ would result due to the number of extra special rules and mechanisms you have proposed). I have played this much already - and still find it confusing and odd. Now in v8.4 you have added an engage action that causes the rule to be even more problematic (and I know this was my idea but I decided it wasn't a good one in the end!!  :)).
*Rewarding opponents for allowing Nids to take the initiative and activate rather than engaging and blasting them down as quickly as possible?
*Winning against nids allowing them to race off and attack something they would not have been able to attack if they had just been left alone?
...Sorry but it is just sounding even more bizarre to me.


It was because of the widespread objection to the direction of tyranid development at v8.3 (not to even mention the problems with the new engage rules), that I decided to try and achieve a similar effect with simpler mechanisms. Ie just use the existing EA rules and add a couple of small and easy to remember modifications. Nid players and opponents have little to learn, there are no oddities, and it still generates a similar result to the v8.3 proposals (if not the v8.4 with it's problematic engage proposal).  Ie tyranids are not scared like other races, they are just thrown into confusion momentarily so the opponent gets a temporary respite, but knows it is only gong to last a moment (unlike with other races). Furthermore:
*It actually matches fairly closely what happens to bugs in the 40k rules (ie they can be driven back like others, but will surge back again next turn).
*It adheres to Jervis's principle of avoiding special rules and exceptions as much as possible.


Forget about the terms for a moment (which I think perhaps you are bit hung up on) and look at complexity, length, mechanisms, and actual impact of the rules themselves (same deal with spawning).

Will reply more fully to everything else later (edit - though I notice Dave has already said much of what I was going to...).

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Markconz
 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:57 am 
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(Chroma @ Oct. 03 2007,22:46)
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I think a Rally/Spawn roll is necessary for balance, and haven't, yet, been convinced otherwise.  As well, I'd like to see some battle reports with the "fixed" Synapse spawn point values before we move to much further ahead.

Ok on Spawning.

Honestly, I wouldn't count on seeing too many reports using that new spawn system, it's just too much micromanagement for epic. The old one was bad enough.

Forget about what the mechanics are called and look at what it actually does.

8.3 or 8.4 etc
-you get 0-X bugs (through a two step process involving convoluted dice rolls in 8.3, or 1 convoluted die roll and then a convoluted results process with specific numbers for various synapse creatures).

My version:
-you get 1-X bugs (through 1 simple die roll if unbroken).
-you get 0-X bugs if broken (if this version is used, through 1 simple die roll.)


The only difference 'whether something spawns or not'  in actual results is that under my system unbroken tyranid formations will always get at least 1 gaunt (or 2 gaunts for Doms and Nexus), and why shouldn't they get at least this very minor result while in good order, given their other abilities?. 1 gaunt. You want a specific extra rule mechanic and convoluted dice rolls to decide on whether or not they get that 1 gaunt. Of all things there could be an extra mechanic in the rules for - this is quite possibly the least important one you could choose. It's just infuriatingly pointless given the difference it makes.  

I think saying other players will object to a single gaunt is nonsense, especially when it is actually possible to target swarms to prevent spawning if desired. Furthermore it is such a minor effect in the overall  scheme of tyranids other abilities, that there are dozens of other things players could be complaining about before this. So long as the average effect is balanced (but still random), it will be fine.

As to tyranid warriors having two spawn dice, I think that would be overpowered, same for other WE except Dom.

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Markconz
 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:59 am 
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(Chroma @ Oct. 03 2007,23:25)
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On Blast markers...
I do think they should suffer the "shot at" BM; Markconz battle against the Squats shows the problem of the "lone Bug" thwarting an opponent... I can't see many being happy with that.

The Bugs should get Blast markers for all the "normal" things: get shot at, losing units, crossfire, teleport mishaps, failed activations, etc.  To have one exception in that list is going to be confusing and annoying to opponents.

Agreed - see that was easy :)

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Markconz
 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:01 pm 
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(Chroma @ Oct. 03 2007,22:54)
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On Brood Nests...

I like the idea of a spawn booster for the cagey Tyranid player.  To me, something that represents the infection/infestation of Tyranids in the area is a cool idea and it allows for some fun modelling as well.

First off, a comment was made that it was odd/worrisome that a Brood Nest couldn't be attacked... well, Mycetic Spores/Catalysts/Love Drops can't be attacked either (And, heck, none of the "replace an objective with..." things in any army can, currently, be attacked).  What *can* be done with a Brood Hive, is that it can be denied to the Tyranids!  It allows the opponent to do something and not just sit there and take it, as with Mycetic Spores. A brave, cunning, or crazy opponent can go and capture/surround it and prevent its use by the Tyranid player, and I think that makes for good/exciting game play!

Additionally, as a "localized" spawning boost (and, essentially necessary to spawn back "big" things) it allows all players to rationalize and accept where "all those Broods!" are coming from, and I think that will make acceptance of "larger creatures" being spawned more palatable and acceptable.

Fair enough reasoning and I prefer the idea to mycetic spores.

Also because of the modelling opportunities...  :D

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Markconz
 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:55 am 
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Thought it might be useful  to compare what the various Tyranid Instinctive rule proposals allow in actual practice (the meat and bones of them)...

v8.3
*Instinctive can move once if non-activated (but can double if broken in an engage if activated or not).
*OR nonactivated Instinctive can shoot (because tyranids are famous for their shooting :p :;): )
*Instinctive can support (as above...)
*Suppression effects ignored

v8.4 As v8.3 but add:
*Nonactivated Instinctive can engage, or can double and engage if they lose an engagement, or move only 5cm and engage if they win an engagement (because losing is better for some reason...)


My proposal
*Instinctive can move double
*Suppression effects ignored

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Charad
 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:34 am 
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With 8.4 there is something I really don't like on spawning system.
-nexus is so good, it gives 5 points back so on average it is much better than dominatrix.
-spawning hierodyles is almost impossible now (needs 3 rolls of 5-6 with dominatrix assuming there is no enemies around (30cms))

Other things
-List feels good and I personally like that cluster system.
-units with gaunts 'never' break unless losing close combat
-many stats seem to be on place now
-limiting withdrawal move could help with instictive engages across table
-more comments after hena has written that report

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