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[Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
Chroma
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:53 pm 
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Last, but not least, the boys, and girls, in black! ?Here are the Ulthw? updates I did over the weekend.

Added

Nothing

Changed

Seer Council extra attacks reduced to +1MWFF and +1MWCC, given base FF4+

Removed

Nothing

Please take a look and find any mistakes I may have made!

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Charad
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:00 pm 
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That wraithlord formation shouldn't be there.

Now you have weakened Seer council, and it hasn't reflected on unit cost?

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Charad
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:08 pm 
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Now 3 troupes per warhost is back again, is it intentional?

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:09 pm 
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(Charad @ Oct. 02 2007,18:00)
QUOTE
That wraithlord formation shouldn't be there.
That's what I get for cutting-n-pasting!

The corrected .pdf has been re-posted in the first post.

Now you have weakened Seer council, and it hasn't reflected on unit cost?
That's correct, with the extra attacks it was worth a *lot* more that 100 points.

Supreme Commander itself, as a special ability, is considered a 50-75 point value upgrade on its own, so adding reinforced armour, another "pip" of FF ability and a +1FFMW attack to a Farseer (which is what the "replacing" with the Seer Council is the equivalent of) in addition to supreme commander seems right in the ballpark of a 100 point upgrade.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:10 pm 
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(Charad @ Oct. 02 2007,18:08)
QUOTE
Now 3 troupes per warhost is back again, is it intentional?

Nope, a cut-n-paste error as well, the corrected .pdf has now been posted, thanks for your keen eyes Charad!

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Charad
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:10 pm 
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On nightwings there is one extra 300pts

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Charad
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:14 pm 
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Supreme Commander itself, as a special ability, is considered a 50-75 point value upgrade on its own, so adding reinforced armour, another "pip" of FF ability and a +1FFMW attack to a Farseer (which is what the "replacing" with the Seer Council is the equivalent of) in addition to supreme commander seems right in the ballpark of a 100 point upgrade.


That is just what you compare it with.
Compared to autarch, it gives supreme commander, inspiring,  invulnerable, macro cc+ extra ff on 75pts? with that seer council sounds bit expensive.

Compared to marines all other SC:s are bargain.

Compared to BL daemon prince... okay I don't even start. And it costs 50pts

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:21 pm 
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(Charad @ Oct. 02 2007,18:14)
QUOTE
That is just what you compare it with.
Compared to autarch, it gives supreme commander, inspiring, ?invulnerable, macro cc+ extra ff on 75pts? with that seer council sounds bit expensive.

I'd rather it a bit expensive than a bit cheap...

Compared to marines all other SC:s are bargain.
Well Steel Legion SC's cost ya 100 points extra... ;)  But yeah, I agree with you.

Compared to BL daemon prince... okay I don't even start. And it costs 50ptsWell, Black Legion gets all kinds of free characters... adding supreme commander to an, already super-(over?) powered, Daemon Prince is the most extreme example.

In addition, I'd rather the Seer Council be "a bit" expensive, if it means the Ulthw? player actually feels the need to "make a choice" about including one in every army they take or not... at 50 points, it's a complete no-brainer, but I don't think the Seer Council would show up at *every* Ulthw? battle!  *laugh*

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Charad
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:34 pm 
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Ulhwe list has got serious downgrades already, mainly affecting constant need for nightwings, due to reduced amount of ground flak.

Seer council's cost would be pretty accurate on 75pts. RA is fantastic and that extra FF macro attack is always handy, because guardians mainly use FF. And I'd say they are quite equal with autarch in power and that is reason why cost should be same.

And IG SC has that mandatory commissar with him all the time, so SC, inspiring, +2ccMW...

And I forgot to thank you for all work you have done for pointy ears. Thank you. :)

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:18 pm 
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(Charad @ Oct. 02 2007,18:34)
QUOTE
Ulhwe list has got serious downgrades already, mainly affecting constant need for nightwings, due to reduced amount of ground flak.

Well, the Shields of Vaul can be three Fire Storms strong, so that seems like decent ground flak to me... and don't people usually take a squadron of Nightwings anyway?

Seer council's cost would be pretty accurate on 75pts. RA is fantastic and that extra FF macro attack is always handy, because guardians mainly use FF. And I'd say they are quite equal with autarch in power and that is reason why cost should be same.

I still think it's worth slightly more than an Autarch with its abilities and would rather see it high than low... but playtest, playtest, playtest!

And IG SC has that mandatory commissar with him all the time, so SC, inspiring, +2ccMW...
I usually stick the Reg HQ Commissar in the attached Ogryn platoon... *laugh*

And I forgot to thank you for all work you have done for pointy ears. Thank you. :)My pleasure!  

Eldar were what got me into GW in the first place... not sure if I love 'em or hate 'em the Panzies for that or not...  :D

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:25 am 
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Personally I think the Seer Council change here is a good one.

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Charad
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:19 am 
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I admit, seer council doesn't sound bad after I read iyanden's wraithseers cost. :)

After that idea came to my mind, why not allow ulhtwe to have autarch too? it could be only put on 4 strong aspects, but that means you could choose not to use seer council everytime.

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:31 am 
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Nah violates distinctiveness of lists. If everyone can have each others toys there is no point in having distinctive lists at all. Jervis principle - lists should be defined as much by what they don't have as by what they do.  Seer Councils are totally defining of Ulthwe.

Hmm I think I need to make a dedicated 'Principles of Jervis' thread one day and link to it from my sig...

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Charad
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:04 am 
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Also there is few spaces missing in special rule-may not garrison box.

Ulthw? have autarchs. But I know your point, still you don't need to everytime do jervis wishes/wants etc. Your approach methods aren't the one and only. It is really nice to see what others feel too. :)

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Moscovian
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:12 pm 
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(Charad @ Oct. 02 2007,13:14)
QUOTE
Supreme Commander itself, as a special ability, is considered a 50-75 point value upgrade on its own, so adding reinforced armour, another "pip" of FF ability and a +1FFMW attack to a Farseer (which is what the "replacing" with the Seer Council is the equivalent of) in addition to supreme commander seems right in the ballpark of a 100 point upgrade.


That is just what you compare it with.
Compared to autarch, it gives supreme commander, inspiring, ?invulnerable, macro cc+ extra ff on 75pts? with that seer council sounds bit expensive.

Charad, also remember an Autarch is 75 points for a character whereas a Seer Council is an entire unit.

At aproximately 37 points per Aspect stand you are looking at 112 points for a stand with an Autarch on it.

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