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Instinctive Vs Disposable

Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Instinctive Vs Disposable

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:13 pm

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I'm still not keen on Tyranid swarms breaking... I *do* want them to be different from other armies in regard to "morale effects".

I'm pretty sure that breaking a 'nid formation will be a rare thing if all common broods become Disposable.

And frankly, I've not liked instinctive, I'd have preferred something along the lines of 'Tyranids never become broken, no matter how many blast markers they accumulate'.

So yes, they would become surpressed, and yes they would have to roll to rally*, but no, they would not break.

* A passed rally test would also let the formation Spawn if applicable.

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woodelf_dave

Post subject: Instinctive Vs Disposable

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:09 pm

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Regardless of whether "disposable" is accepted as part of the Tyranids rule set I think it is crucial for the Nids special rules to be simplified. Perhaps currently we are trying to achieve overly subtle ways to replicate the Tyranids 40K approach into Epic. However in Epic we should only be aiming for a broad representation.

I don`t think the rules as written in 8.3 fit the pattern of rules written for the original Marine, IG and Ork armies. With the best of intentions they are too complicated and too wordy.

As a wee experiment I asked a non epic player at our club to read the core rules over the course of a week. At the end of the week I asked him to read the Marine & IG guard lists as well as the Nids 8.3 list. He could explain how the Imperial forces worked in 2min but could not adequately describe how the Tyranids would function even after about 20min pouring over the document. Not a scientific test I agree but perhaps illuminates a point.

He was confused about the 5cm coherence and 15cm synapse ranges, the ability to change formation sizes as the game progressed, couldn`t work out how the instinctive / relentless rules would work and thought the spawning table was too complicated.

Not trying to be disparging about all the effort that has gone into the list. Honest ! I just think that in trying to achieve a realistic "tyranid feel" we have gone too far. Even if it means starting over I think we must get a simpler rule set.

For example, I feel "disposable" is the epitome of Tyranid common brood creatures and should be used.
Also, we all think spawning is another basic Tyranid function. However I am guessing that if the Nids had been written as one of the first armies it would have something like : make one dice roll to determine how many gribblies come back over the whole army (or at most one dice roll per swarm). Yes we might expect that Hive Tyrants are "worth" more than Tyranid warriors for spawning but at Epic level this is micro managing. Its the overall effect we are trying to represent not the detailed mechanics.

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woodelf_dave

Post subject: Instinctive Vs Disposable

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:39 pm

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Hi Hena,

Yes he did read the original 8.3 rules. I`ll get him to read over Marconz`s rewrite and see if that helps. In all honestly though I think the synapse and spawning are written pretty clearly - it`s just I think they are trying to do too much.

I think the original design thought process should have been less grand and a bit like :
OK so, in the very simplest terms, what are the broad assumptions about how the tyranids should play (and what makes them different from other armies)

1) Synapse creatures are important to make the swarms do want the hive mind wants.
We could broadly represent this by saying for example synapse creatures give a +1 to activation rolls or synapse creatures prevent suppression due to BMs or synapse creatures allow an auto rally in the end phase.
No fiddly synapse ranges etc - just something simple that gives an indication of the importance of synapse creatures.

2) The hive mind doesn`t care for brood creatures - treating them as mere cannon fodder. Even more so than Orks treat Gretchen ?Again a simple solution would be to give selected common brood units disposable.

3) The tyranids kick ass in close combat. Clearly adjust stats on units to make them better in combat. ?If more is needed then perhaps allow the nids to reroll one of the combat modifier dice or some other simple advantage.

4) The tyranids sweep forward in an endless stream. When you kill some even more step forward to take their place. ?Dead common broods can be spawned in the end phase. A single roll for the army indicates how many come back (or a simple roll per swarm). No need to worry about which units are better at spawning.

Not really putting these up for consideration but just as a feel for what I think should be very simple rules to give a broad (ie Epic) feel for how the army should play. Lots of detail shouldn`t be here in Epic - keep that for 40K.

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Hojyn

Post subject: Instinctive Vs Disposable

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 11:01 pm

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Hi,

I really support this idea of simplifying the special rules. Despite Hena's and Chroma's best efforts (and they've done a tremendous job, as well as everybody else involved in the Tyranid list development), the first impression upon reading the list is that these rules are really too long and too numerous. The army itself is probably balanced, but learning those special rules is far from easy.

(woodelf_dave @ Sep. 11 2007,21:39)

QUOTE

1) Synapse creatures are important to make the swarms do want the hive mind wants.
We could broadly represent this by saying for example synapse creatures give a +1 to activation rolls or synapse creatures prevent suppression due to BMs or synapse creatures allow an auto rally in the end phase.
No fiddly synapse ranges etc - just something simple that gives an indication of the importance of synapse creatures.

I think that giving Fearless to all synapse creatures would set them apart from the rest of the "horde".

Also, why not get rid of the ability to change formation sizes? I know it feels appropriate, but it's also a bit confusing and doesn't really add much to the army.

2) The hive mind doesn`t care for brood creatures - treating them as mere cannon fodder. Even more so than Orks treat Gretchen Again a simple solution would be to give selected common brood units disposable.

That would be really nice, yes, and certainly worth a try. I wish I could play more often, I'd try it on the spot...

3) The tyranids kick ass in close combat. Clearly adjust stats on units to make them better in combat. If more is needed then perhaps allow the nids to reroll one of the combat modifier dice or some other simple advantage.

Yes, I remember when Tyranids used to be CC monsters (back in SM/TL) !

Currently they're got at CC, but sheer numbers make them almost as dangerous in FF as an IF army. I think FF6+ should be the best a tyranid creature ever gets (with a few exceptions, perhaps). On the other hand, they should be death incarnate in CC and regularly have values of CC4+, 3+ or perhaps even 2+.

4) The tyranids sweep forward in an endless stream. When you kill some even more step forward to take their place. Dead common broods can be spawned in the end phase. A single roll for the army indicates how many come back (or a simple roll per swarm). No need to worry about which units are better at spawning.

That's a good idea too. I also like the "fixed spawning" idea, it keeps things simple.

Not really putting these up for consideration but just as a feel for what I think should be very simple rules to give a broad (ie Epic) feel for how the army should play. Lots of detail shouldn`t be here in Epic - keep that for 40K.

Couldn't agree more.

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Markconz

Post subject: Instinctive Vs Disposable

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:27 am

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(Hena @ Sep. 11 2007,17:52)

QUOTE

woodelf_dave. Did he read the 8.3 rules? Could you show him the rewriting in below and ask if the swarm composition makes more sense (ps. Marconz, make the Dave change here to the text for this as it's probably very helpful).
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....t=10391

Done. Change made.

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BlackLegion

Post subject: Instinctive Vs Disposable

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:55 am

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What about *GASP* fixed swarm sizes. Divided up in Small, Medium and Huge with the option to buy individual units to increase the size in the same way as Ork Warbands?

On a side note here some swarms from the upcoming Apocalypse book for WH40k. Worth a thought perhabs:
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w251 ... ure106.jpg
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w251 ... ure107.jpg
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w251 ... ure105.jpg

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Instinctive Vs Disposable

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:04 am

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I don't think fixed formations are appropriate for the Tyranids.

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BlackLegion

Post subject: Instinctive Vs Disposable

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:11 am

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Perhabs.

But perhabs these Core Swarms are quite small. And you can always increase their size with additional individual units.

Some other ideas:

If i would translate the Synapse and Instictive Behaviour rules from Codex: Tyranids to Epic i would do something like this:

Synapse
- Synapse units and all units in 15cm around the Synapse units are Fearless.
- Swarms with at least one Synapse unit gain +1 on action tests
Examples for units with Synapse are: Hive Tyrant, Tyranid Warriors, Zoantrophes (optional), Broodlord, Trygon, Harridan, Vituperator, both Synapse Nodes and Dominatrix.

Instinctive Behaviour
- Swarms without Synapse units suffer a -1 penalty on action tests and can only do Hold, Engage, Assault and sustain actions.
- Swarms without a Synapse unit which becomes broken must move to the closest Synapse unit. If they reach formation cohesion with the Synapse units swarm the two swarms merge to a single formation.
- Swarms without a Synapse unit can't hold Objectives but they can contest them.
Exampels of units with Instinctive Behaviour: Lictors, Termagants, Hormagaunts, Raveners, Gargoyles, Zoantrophes (optional), Carnifex, Haruspex, Malefactor, Hierodules, Hierophant, Hydraphant and Meiotic Spore Sacks.

Brood Telepathy aka Independent
- Some units benefit from Brood Telepathy. Swarms consisting only of such creatures don't suffer from Instinctive Behaviours.
Examples for units with Brood Telepathy are: Genestealers, Biovores, Dactylis and Exocrine.

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Dave

Post subject: Instinctive Vs Disposable

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:07 pm

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While I agree that the Tyranid special rules are more numerous than the core 3 armies and their variants I don't think they're over the top as compared to say the Chaos or Tau lists.

I've played a couple of games with the 8.3 rules and I don't find them overly confusing. They're a lot better than what they were, they still need some clarification and a little tightening down but I think they work well and convey the Tryanids properly.

I'm not on board with the whole disposable brood creature suggestion as I think Instinctive is better suited than units breaking. Although with brood creatures being disposable I'm not sure that we would see broods breaking at all.

As to the spawning numbers, it's just another stat lookup. In all the games I've played I've always had to lookup a stat. I don't see why making spawning constant needs to be done just to keep people from referring to the rules. As a suggestion though, maybe we could add the spawning values to the datasheets and reference tables though?

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Hojyn

Post subject: Instinctive Vs Disposable

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:09 pm

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(Hena @ Sep. 12 2007,06:43)

QUOTE

Pure CC army will not work. CC is very hard to get into and against skimmers, they are useless. If Tyranids are nerfed even more in FF, then they cannot win against all skimmer Eldar or Tau.

Well, they could still win assaults through sheer numbers, I guess, especially if brood creatures get the "Disposable" rule. And would it be such a bad thing if nids were weaker against skimmer armies? They are (or should be) a CC army, so that kind of weakness is not illogical. Right now, with FF5+ Termagants and Gargoyles, the nids feel more like an FF army, and somehow it doesn't feel right.

Of all the proposals made in this thread, my favourite combo would be :

Disposable for brood creatures
+
Fearless (and perhaps Leader) for synapse creatures
+
Fixed spawning values with auto-respawn (say, 1 per synapse creature, perhaps more for Dominatrix)
+
Better CC/Worse FF values

I sure would like to try that. ?

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Chroma

Post subject: Instinctive Vs Disposable

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:20 pm

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(Hojyn @ Sep. 12 2007,16:09)

QUOTE

[quote="Hena,Sep. 12 2007,06:43"]
Disposable for brood creatures

This is something I'm definitely considering, with this type of alteration: No BM for "shooting deaths, still count in combat resolution".

Fearless (and perhaps Leader) for synapse creatures

I think almost all Synapse creatures already are fearless, but allowing fearless effects to affect whole swarms opens up a big can of hard-to-kill worms.

Fixed spawning values with auto-respawn (say, 1 per synapse creature, perhaps more for Dominatrix)Hena is right in this is something we've moved *away* from.

Once you've played a few games, you generally know what you're rolling, and having a reference sheet nearby helps a lot too... but things may change.

Better CC/Worse FF values[/b]
I think this is a conception/idea that really needs to change: Tyranids are not a "close combat" army they are an "assault" army; projecting their most deadly force from up-close-and-personal to firefight range. ?

It's still a "mass of tooth and claws", but it also spits acid, shoot spines, makes psychic attacks, and spreads deadly spores. ?

I can't stress this "change" enough. ?

It was something like five, maybe more, years ago when Jervis made that "mass of tooth and claws" comment. ?The Tyranids in the 40k universe have been "revamped" since then, they are still very "clawful", but they can do short range shooting with the best of them as well, and that's the development arena that this list is being created in.

I do, however, want everyone to provide input, complaints, criticisms, suggestions, and everything else and I appreciate and read and digest it all!

I want Tyranids to be *different* from other armies; they are the most different race in the 40k universe and I don't think they're a "beginners" army, so, yes, some of their rules may be difficult to understand at first, but we're striving to make that as easy to overcome as possible and to make them fun to play with and against as well.

Thanks to everyone on the forum again!

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Dave

Post subject: Instinctive Vs Disposable

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:21 pm

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I'm definitely in agreement with hena here on these issues. Especially with the BM/Node problem. I'd like to see some changes there.

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