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Bio-Titans again.
Markconz
 Post subject: Bio-Titans again.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:56 pm 
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This keeps coming up... so here's another stab at it.

For reference here is Chroma's mutable weapons ideas.
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....;t=8706
I agree with Neal Hunt that it is too much for the main list... BUT given the current situation with bugs I think we should take a very limited form of it. Specifically leave the choice of 2 ?arm? weapons up to players for both the hiero and hydra so as not to invalidate old models (the only available) or scratch build opportunities. Thus both hiero and hydra select two of the following:

Gargantuan Claws: This is what biotitans should be all about... and  TK (D3) on both critters please.
Biocannons: Fine as is. In terms of function and power these are about stunning prey so you can move in for the kill, and that is really all they do - maybe killing a weak unit or two if they get lucky, but mainly they just place BM. As I said in another thread it is far less problematic having these on large WE?s than small units because of how many points you are spending per biocannon. Ie it helps keep the tyranid character ? limited shooting for the purpose of placing BM prior to assault of teeth and claws.

So overall I'd like stats something similar to the following:


Hydraphant 375 points
Type Speed Armour Close Combat Firefight
WE 20cm 4+ 3+ 5+
Weapons Range Firepower Notes
1 Ripper Tentacles: Extra Attacks (+2), First Strike
1 Bioplasma Breath: Template MW 5+
Cluster Spines (15cm) Small Arms
Two of the following:
0-2 Bio-Cannon 45cm 2 x AP3+/AT4+  
0-2 Gargantuan Claws (Base Contact) Assault Weapons Extra Attacks (+1), TK(D3)
Damage Capacity 6. RA, Fearless, Walker, Independent, Regeneration


Hierophant 275 points.
Type Speed Armour Close Combat Firefight
WE 25cm 4+ 3+ 5+
Weapons Range Firepower Notes
1 Bioplasma Breath: Template MW 5+
Cluster Spines (15cm) Small Arms
Two of the following:
0-2 Bio-Cannon 45cm 2 x AP3+/AT4+
0-2 Gargantuan Claws (Base Contact) Assault Weapons Extra Attacks (+1), TK(D3)
Damage Capacity 4. RA, Fearless, Walker, Independent, Regeneration

(Note that in this form the Hierophant loses 2 weapons, but claws increase to D3 damage, and it gains bioplasma breath so cost stays the same).


Dominatrix: 400 points (note TK CC attacks drop to macro).
Type Speed Armour Close Combat Firefight
WE 20cm 4+ 3+ 5+
Weapons Range Firepower Notes
1 Warp Blast: 30cm AP4+/AT4+/AA5+
and Small Arms (15) +1A MW
1 Bioplasma Breath Template MW 5+
1 Bio-Cannon 45cm 2 x AP3+/AT4+
2 x Massive Claws (Base Contact) Assault Weapons, MW
Damage Capacity 6, RA, Fearless, Walker, Independent, Regeneration, SC, Synapse.

(Note the Dominatrix just doesn't have the big claws of bio-titans, at most they should be TK (1), but I'd just make them macro. It is a commander not a full battle titan and these stats better suits the model. Also it makes it a more reasonable choice for synapse option which is important).


One other thing hierodules look too cheap to me, but I can't really comment as I haven't used them - thoughts?

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Soren
 Post subject: Bio-Titans again.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:00 pm 
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If I look at the numbers, especially Hierophant, another two battletitan come into my mind. Questor and Subjugator Titans. For just a little points less you get real monsters of CC and shooting, even with void shields and also fearless and in formations of 2 very hard to kill. To be honest, for this abilities 275 fell too much for a Hierophant, compared with LatD Titans or even Warhounds. Else as a Hierophant can now be "broken" , I think the abilities and the costs should be comparable between this three types of titans, which is not the case imho.




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Markconz
 Post subject: Bio-Titans again.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:50 am 
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(Soren @ Jul. 18 2007,21:00)
QUOTE
If I look at the numbers, especially Hierophant, another two battletitan come into my mind. Questor and Subjugator Titans. For just a little points less you get real monsters of CC and shooting, even with void shields and also fearless and in formations of 2 very hard to kill. To be honest, for this abilities 275 fell too much for a Hierophant, compared with LatD Titans or even Warhounds. Else as a Hierophant can now be "broken" , I think the abilities and the costs should be comparable between this three types of titans, which is not the case imho.

Yes you are absolutely correct, and the BM change makes a huge difference. Part of my problem with this BM change is that it is now very easy to suppress these 'unstoppable' behemoths. Something  about it doesn't feel right to me at all.

Perhaps DC up to 5 for hiero, and 7 to hierophant, and points down to 250 and 350 respectively is necessary?

Else, dare I bring up the Adeptus Titanicus II, 'Bioplasma Shields' rule?  :alien:

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Chroma
 Post subject: Bio-Titans again.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:15 am 
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(Markconz @ Jul. 19 2007,00:50)
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Else, dare I bring up the Adeptus Titanicus II, 'Bioplasma Shields' rule? ?:alien:

They ain't getting shields!  *laugh*

Personally, I think they should have invulnerable save, but I know there are some that find that over the top.

I'll be more active in a few days, I'm just in the middle of moving into a new place with my fiance... so, if I survive, I'll be posting some updates soon!

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Cobalt
 Post subject: Bio-Titans again.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:40 am 
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I like the stats you propose, even if I will not comment on the price issue or the fact they can be "easily" broken, since I have yet to play with the new rules...

But just one thing, irrelevant as it may be...

Since we finally managed to get rid of the dom/hydraphant link, and the hydraphant has turned into the monster I always wanted it to be...

Why don't we also get rid of its name. Hierodule and Hierophants have a nice meaning (female temple slaves and Greek priest who interpreted sacred mysteries)... Hydraphant means nothing and sounds a lot like "Hydrocephalic Elephant..."

I propose we dump the name and use the nicer Hierarch (High Priest)... Nice, consistent with the other names, and very characterful...

(I know it is probably a lost battle, but I really can't stand Hydraphant...)




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Markconz
 Post subject: Bio-Titans again.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:12 am 
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(Hena @ Jul. 19 2007,09:08)
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For that unstoppable thing... Well my suggestions (which I have failed to test unfortunately, but perhaps on weekend) would affect that.

Sorry where are your suggestions?


Also why so keen to make hierophant so shooty and hydraphant not at all? 2 automatic biocannons on hierophant seems to be overpowering the shooting to me. I don't think that is what bugs should be about.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Bio-Titans again.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:22 am 
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Oh the engage on hold - yeah that is what I've been agreeing with! :)

One of the nice things about criticals in the E40k rules was that many of them were leg damage that slowed the bio-titan down a bit... if it was too close it didn't help much, but if it was further away you got some more time to shoot it more. Allowing engage on hold would have a similar effect.

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Soren
 Post subject: Bio-Titans again.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:27 am 
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(Markconz @ Jul. 19 2007,00:50)
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Yes you are absolutely correct, and the BM change makes a huge difference. Part of my problem with this BM change is that it is now very easy to suppress these 'unstoppable' behemoths. Something  about it doesn't feel right to me at all.

Yes, biotitans are the spearhead of the Hive mind. Now shoot two times on him, do one or two damage points and he flees into cover.

Two conclusions come in my mind to make them a little better:

1.) They cannot be broken again (only Hierophant and Hydraphant)

2.) Allow them coming in pairs, like all the other titans. So they get much more restistant against breaking, but will also die in pairs from 200pts Deathstrike salvos.

A note to Biocannon: Two biocannons are about the half firepower of a Warhound, I cannot see any overpowered thing in this (compared to the point costs and looking at FF5+)




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Bio-Titans again.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:46 am 
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The Dominatrix still needs an Invulnerable save.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Bio-Titans again.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:05 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jul. 19 2007,10:46)
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The Dominatrix still needs an Invulnerable save.

Well you, me and Chroma makes 3.

Who are the against camp?  ???  :)

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Chroma
 Post subject: Bio-Titans again.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:38 pm 
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(Hena @ Jul. 19 2007,12:11)
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(Markconz @ Jul. 19 2007,14:05)
QUOTE
Who are the against camp? ???? ?:)

Me, me :).

Is that *two* votes?  *laugh*

Again, I'll be more active in all this next week after my move this weekend.

Thanks for all the discussions!

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Markconz
 Post subject: Bio-Titans again.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:58 pm 
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Lol, good luck for your shift Chroma!  :)

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