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NetEA?

CyberShadow

Post subject: NetEA?

Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:45 pm

Swarm Tyrant

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9350
Location: Singapore

For quite a while, I have been in a bit of a confused state. It appears that Epic Armageddon is not being supported in the way that was initially stated. However, I have long worried that any split from 'official' development would further fracture the Epic playing community, and generally be bad for the game itself.

But even I cannot escape the fact that things are getting worse, and not better. I also think that it would provide a useful resource for debate and experimentation to help the official ERC to have a wider ranging debate on rules issues, and focus the community better if more visible discussion and advances are made.

The prospect of 'NetEA' has been thrown around frequently, but not advanced seriously for a number of reasons. Right now, there are a number of independent rules development directions, and a unification of these would be good for the game.

Therefore, I would like to ask for comments.

Please dont respond to this thread. Instead, I would be very interested in comments PM'ed to me privately. I do this initially so that people can please give me their honest and frank opinions. I would like to know what you all think of this idea.

In addition, if this were to go ahead, I would like to know who would be interested in participating. Please dont just volunteer without thinking about it seriously. Any development takes a lot of time, and is largely a thankless task. It requires hours reading and typing, and I would strongly suggest that you also consult with your wife/girlfriend/husband/boyfriend/partner, since they will need to understand the commitment too. :;):

Also, if you do think that you would like to be involved, please drop me a short idea of what you think you would like to actually do.

In summary, I am considering the option of beginning NetEA. I would like comments on this idea, not posted openly at this stage but PM'ed to me. If you think that you could contribute, and would like to be involved, please tell me that, too.

Thanks.

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CyberShadow

Post subject: NetEA?

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:43 pm

Swarm Tyrant

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9350
Location: Singapore

Hi. Firstly, thanks to all who sent me messages of support about this. I got a lot more than I expected, and I will get back and respond as soon as I can.

Two overwhelming facts surfaced from the messages that I was sent.

1. Not one person has any faith in the future of the game in the hands of SG, and faith in the ERC is very limited. It is fairly unanimous that something would need to be done if the game was to survive.

2. While opinion was split, the majority of people voiced the opinion that any NetEA or split from 'official development' would not necessarily have a negative effect on the game, but would seriously confuse any new players to the game - and these new players are vital.

It seems to me, therefore, that the general position of the community (as represented by the people who messaged me) is that we should be attempting to support current development, and putting in place a 'safety net' in case of future problems and allowing us to move rapidly in the future if required.

The question now is what can we, the community, do to provide a valued resource, support and game and put in place a structure for future work if required?

I would suggest that we build a central web site, hosted here, with every resource that we can find available - links to sites, latest and current official versions of force lists together, synopsis of current development (eg "the skimmer rule has been updated..." and "the Eldar force list was revised in..."), as well as giving guidelines for people looking to enter tournaments, and possibly also a list of recommended tournament rules inclusions and options (eg official lists, in development lists that are relatively balanced, etc) and even a couple of tournament options - for example tournament rules set one has only SG approved and official rules, tournament rules set two has all of set one and a few of the more advanced force lists in development, and rules update, etc. That way, tournament organisers could simply state 'rules set two' and everyone would know the state of affairs.

These are just some initial ideas thrown out. Our next step, as I see it, is to move with two sets of decisions.

A. What can we do to support the game? Is this web resource a good idea and a step in the right direction? What else do you think we can do?

B. If this web resource is a good idea, what should be included. Any and all suggestions for this are welcomed.

Thanks again.

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Moscovian

Post subject: NetEA?

Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:04 pm

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Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
Posts: 6414
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA

CS,

I'm in favor of this (obviously). Here are some of my suggestions and thoughts.

Experimental Lists - there are are plenty of reasons why SG does not support many experimental lists. The models are OOP, the models were never produced, whatever... But conversely there are plenty of experimental lists that play just fine (there may be balance issues, but not extreme ones).

For each experimental list out there, I recommend a separate section where it details who the developer/champ is, when it was created, link to download (or download from here), links to discussions (or better yet move the discussion to that section. In addition, the list could have a separate poll (for people who have played the list or played against it only) where people could rate how balanced the list is. This may or may not be a good idea, but it has the potential to do two things: let the developer know how well his list is running and lets potential players know how the list plays. A similar poll could be used for ease of modeling the list (a mixture of availability, kitbusting, sales on ebay, whatever factors contribute to making the army list happen). Lastly, perhaps we can upgrade the space available on TacComs for the lists so that heavy graphics can be put in the lists.

Army Champs - This would tie into the topic above, but I think the Army Champs / Developers should have certain things available for their lists:
1. Estimated cost of collecting. This could be made uniform with a 3000 point list as a standard, but why go crazy? Just give some notes on how much it would cost with models from SG (if available), cost of raw materials, time it took to build the army.
2. Vice-champs or co-developers. There are times when the champs seem to drop off the face of the Earth and the list just dies on the vine. Army champs should be encouraged to have a person who can make decisions for them when they are off the radar (not checking the boards for more than a week, let's say). This wouldn't be a coup! Ex. Alaitoc list champ disappears and nobody knows where he is - the vice-champ is then called upon to make decisions if need be. When the champ comes back, he discusses with the vice champ off forum then all is normal. The two of them would be responsible for keeping in touch with each other (having each other's emails, etc.)
3. Anything else helpful. Making paper counters, a list of good proxies, pictures of painted models, paint schemes, etc. The champ should have a separate section that helps champion his list.

Ebay support - CS, please move the link for the ebay support thingy to someplace prominent... like at the top of every page. I have bought three things from ebay lately and have forgotten every time (out of sight, out of mind).

Supplements - obviously I am a supporter of these as well. SG will NOT be making any more supplements folks, so we've got to step up. Epic: Raiders will come out this year by hell or high water. And while the lists may not be the most popular, we hope that this will provide a stepping stone for others to do the same.
Artwork - we hosted a competition for the artwork, but there are plenty of artists I am finding that are willing to donate their talents for the sake of the art itself. These can really make a difference in how things look in a publication.
Lists involved - I've said it before, but to regurgitate a point you can't expect every list to be perfectly balanced. Our own core lists are under review. Using the above tools for the lists (polls and such) will give army champs an idea of how to judge other lists and they can go from there. Besides, there is a lot of work that goes into the supplement besides list balance, I can assure you!

These are some of my initial thoughts and I don't see any of this as hindering Specialist Games in the least. Perhaps SG can be directed to our efforts at some point to show them what we've done.

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: NetEA?

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:27 am

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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London

I think its a good idea, indeed it was mooted in 2004 for Epic to have an 'opensource' computer program style approach. As far as I understand that is a page where each item being developed is stuck or a link to it.

So I guess you mean have something like
Official rules - Rulebook, official army lists, FAQ
Experimental rules - Stuff that is being considered for the rulebook
Races - links to each race and below that their army lists (with more than one for some, the idea is to get all the ideas in one place so it becomes a one stop shop), each with its status, proposed changes, army champion/interested people (the army champ system hasn't nessecerily worked so shouldn't be ridgedly stuck to), links to batreps etc.
Epic version 2 - The stuff Neal has been collating for consideration post everything else

Battle reports - better than all the above would be a tool that allowed us to record our battle results again but with key details like version used, scenario, points value, variations like houserules, full army lists a link to the batrep if it is posted on the web etc etc.

As was proposed in the Jervis talks thread a wiki could be neat but failing that I think it would be good to have a person responsible for each section, with the power to deputise for others if they are away.
Note this person isn't nessecerily developing the lists, rather they are at the very least collating others thoughts, consensus changes, minority views etc. This could be as complex as a series of posts or simply links to the relavent posts in Taccom.

An example would be a fictious person (lets call him NH) heading up the official rules, experimental rules and version 2 sections, then an Imperial rep, Eldar rep, Tau rep, Ork rep etc. To take the Imperials as an example they would have Marines, Guard, AMTL and perhaps Navy as sections each with the relavent list(s) with their status, proposed changes etc etc. Say marines would have their core changes proposed there and further in a list like Space Wolves might have 3 versions from different people, who is workig on each one, the last time it was updated or a battle fought with it etc.

So the whole lot would serve the purpose of a new player coming in, seeing what is official, what army lists they can use and their status, see examples of army lists and batreps for that force then be able to go back and know what the validity and balance of each bit they have read is.

Then the stuff like tournament resources could be an open wiki with all that entails.

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netepic

Post subject: NetEA?

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:13 pm

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 4:26 pm
Posts: 7016
Location: Southfields, London, England

(The_Real_Chris @ Jul. 09 2007,09:27)

QUOTE

Battle reports - better than all the above would be a tool that allowed us to record our battle results again but with key details like version used, scenario, points value, variations like houserules, full army lists a link to the batrep if it is posted on the web etc etc.

I have the source code for old EPICentre one somewhere, I can give you that CS? Or alternatively if you are willing to wait until I get the new coding done for the EW site I can code you up a more flexible custom model.

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nealhunt

Post subject: NetEA?

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:20 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

Just to remind everyone, there is a work list created from forum input a while back.

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Dave

Post subject: NetEA?

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:20 pm

Hybrid

Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:25 pm
Posts: 9539
Location: Worcester, MA

(CyberShadow @ Jul. 07 2007,12:43)

QUOTE

A. What can we do to support the game? Is this web resource a good idea and a step in the right direction? What else do you think we can do?

We should make it easier on all of us and any new/getting-back-into-it players by consolidating all of the changes, errata and new rules into one place. Being able to download up-to-date sections of the rulebook is critical in my opinion. Having people download the PDFs and then go and collect every change to the rules and army lists is not healthy for the player base.

Have an experimental rule section and new army list section. Link to the PDFs, the TacComm development forum and perhaps provide a battle-report form for people to fill out (what they liked, what was broken, etc.). That could be sent to the person in charge of new rules so they can use the information in the next release. Perhaps mailing lists too notifying of when a new release is out.

Also a supplement section, whether they be Swordwind, Raiders or what have you. Essentially well play-tested add-ons. Experimental rules elevated to the next level. A level where they still might see some changes but for the most part are stable enough to use in a tournament.

And this might seem silly or pointless to some people, but all these PDFs should be well edited and look similar (same font, backgrounds, layout etc.)

(CyberShadow @ Jul. 07 2007,12:43)

QUOTE

B. If this web resource is a good idea, what should be included. Any and all suggestions for this are welcomed.

I liked the idea of having a champ for a specific section, who reports to the head before any changes go though. Development should be contained to one forum and one forum only (some re-arrangement might have to be done for that).

Main Rulebook
> Section 1.0
> Section 2.0
...
(could we get updated Reference sheets in here?)

FAQ
> Rulebook-FAQ-YYYY-MM-DD
> Swordwind-FAQ-YYYY-MM-DD
...

Supplements
> Swordwind
> Raiders
> Speed Freaks
> Whitescars
> Black Legion
> Lost and the Damned

Experimental Rules
> Barrage Rules
> Macro-Weapons
...

New Army Lists
> Tyranid Phase IV
> Death Korps of Krieg
...

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J0k3r

Post subject: NetEA?

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:58 pm

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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 11:18 pm
Posts: 876
Location: Edinburgh, UK

I havent yet read all the posts above (will do tonight and may have more thoughts then). Anyway- implementation of a NET:EA contingency plan is a very good idea so that if it does get the boot we can rapidly respond to events.

I also think that there are an awful lot of experimental lists out there and that to take things further needs the focussing of the developing community.

A specific section to support these and outline who is developing what would help bring focus to this side of the hobby as Moscovian suggests. I also think there should be a distiction between major, well supported experimental lists (eg Kreig, DE etc) and "heres a thought..." lists (eg some of my more half baked efforts).

A good way to do this may be to have a special forum where you need permision to start a thread on a certain subject and threads have a specified format to follow. This would make it easier for new members to identify the "chapter approved" lists from the more speculative ones. in fact the TWCenter total war mod forums are a good example of how this could work. Here they separate the modding forums into a hosted section for full betas and a devlopment section where you can see how mods are going and where the half baked ones go to die :devil:

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Moscovian

Post subject: NetEA?

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:15 pm

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Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
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Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA

I think a new set of win-loss battle stats would be helpful too. Start everything at zero and begin battlestats for all armies (with version numbers). When an army undergoes a new change it will need to have new battlestats (in other words, the win-loss numbers get reset to zero). Previous version stats should be available to see if the changes helped the army balance in the right direction.

While I disagree that we need the same fonts

, I think some type of uniform formatting and layout is important as Dave suggested. We can unify how the version numbers are coded:
1.1.1
First and second place changes are for moderate to significant changes (changes to stats, points, special rules) while the third position changes should be for cosmetic changes, corrections, etc. Army list first or army stats first can be resolved just by following what was officially published (Armageddon & Swordwind). This may seem silly until you realize we can determine when battlestats need to be revised by just looking at the version number delta.

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Dave

Post subject: NetEA?

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:15 pm

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Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:25 pm
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Location: Worcester, MA

(Moscovian @ Jul. 09 2007,16:15)

QUOTE

While I disagree that we need the same fonts

Reading my sentence again I see I was unclear. I meant the same font within a document (note boxes and short pieces of fiction possibly excluded). Should we promote someone to Font Nazi?

I'm with you on taking a page from the open source community though on the naming convention. e.g. speed_freeks-1.0.0.pdf.

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Moscovian

Post subject: NetEA?

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:38 pm

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Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
Posts: 6414
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA

Font Champion.

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CyberShadow

Post subject: NetEA?

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:33 pm

Swarm Tyrant

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9350
Location: Singapore

Update

Dont worry. This is still progressing. An update for you all...

The original plan for the site (I know, it got a little delayed!) was to split the site into three sections - Epic, BFG and general wargaming.

The Epic section will have a dedicated section for detailing the rules and current state of the game. In addition, I have appointed three people to organise each of the three sections.

nealhunt - Rules - Neal will guide people through the minefield of the current rules, detailing what is official, providing links to all the required material and pointers to future directions etc.

Hena - Force lists - Hena will deal with the official force list developments, the most up to date official version, the latest list in development version, bringing the various lists together, etc

Moscovian - Community - Moscovian will keep tgrack of the various developments undertaken by the community, here and other places. This will include the up and coming Raiders suppliment, fan based lists such as the third phase Tyranids, Genestealer Cults, and so on.

I expect Neal and Hena to work together to suggest setup for tournaments, key rules and official and useable force lists. I also expect that Hena and Moscovian would work together in the grey area of force lists, such as variant Marines, Eldar Craftworlds, etc.

Also, while these three people will co-ordinate and organise these aspects, I am sure that they will be asking people for support and help - and I am thinking of things like Markconz rules compilation and blackhorizons force list collection, so please give them as much support as they need.

The goal in all of this is a single couple of pages for players outlining all the rules, clearly stating what is official and what state other rules are at. This should be a single stop for all rules questions and answers about the game, and act as a springboard for future and further development.

If anyone has any comments on this play, further ideas or comments or anything at all, please do drop me a PM to let me know. I would like to build a section of the site that is almost essential for all players who want to be updated on the game.

In addition, keep your eyes open for further developments in this site! :blues:

Thanks.

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Markconz

Post subject: NetEA?

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:32 am

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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand

Apologies for not contacting you regarding all this earlier Cybershadow. It all sounds very good. For my own part, rather than saying 'I will do this' I thought I would just go ahead and see what I actually could get done, given that I am in an extremely busy postgrad course this year. Hence the handbook idea.

I am happy to report that so far the handbook is going very well. It appears that skills in rapidly writing clinical patient reports generalise to epic handbook creation

(I wonder if that is why Primarch got so much done??) I have completely transcribed all the core rules, core lists, and swordwind. As of today, sections 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 of the main rules and all of Swordwind is now revised. I will update the download when I get back from some seminars later today. Hit allocation in section 1 is giving me a headache and I see that as the major obstacle right now.

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blackhorizon

Post subject: NetEA?

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:50 am

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Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:40 pm
Posts: 2842
Location: Netherlands

I see my name! I see BFG,

Iain, what is it you want from me? Force List Collection....?

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CyberShadow

Post subject: NetEA?

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:27 am

Swarm Tyrant

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9350
Location: Singapore

(blackhorizon @ Jul. 19 2007,08:50)

QUOTE

I see my name! I see BFG,

Iain, what is it you want from me? Force List Collection....?

Dammit. That will teach me to post while half asleep. Sorry to you both, I meant BlackLegion! (Are you two related? You share a name.)

Markconz - No problem. As I understand it, your compilation was put together for your own group. I just dont want people to feel that any involvement or contribution is not accepted, and that we will spend time reinventing the wheel with this.

Do you have plans for hosting and distribution of this tome?

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