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The Harbinger Bomber
Moscovian
 Post subject: The Harbinger Bomber
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:56 pm 
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Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't see anything about this vehicle that would rationalize Support Craft status.  Is there something in the background that says it would hover over a battlefield?
from this thread.

Uhm - support craft status?  :)  Does anyone know if AI outlines the unit's ability to hover?  Is it addressed or is it an unknown?  Is it mentioned in any fluff?  Would it be a giant leap to say it could hover?  Personally, I can't see something like that not having the ability to hover (imagine the runway they'd need to build for that!).  

Support Craft would increase the opportunities to destroy it making it less effective and probably less expensive.  It would also be in line with the Tau Manta.

A minimum movement could be established to keep it from hovering as well - that would eliminate the sustain fire too.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: The Harbinger Bomber
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:01 pm 
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massive capabilities are dependent on a few all-or-nothing die rolls


Like a Titan...


450pts, I reckon that's the starting point.



with the possibility of a critical.  

How about a critical giving an extra DC of damage, rather than the insta-crash of other WE flyers.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: The Harbinger Bomber
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:09 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jul. 05 2007,18:17)
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My gut tells me it's actually worth less.

No offence intended E&C but I don't think you explored all the capabilities of air fully.

You can create areas of suppressed flak - I've done it for Marauders but there the pay-off isn't great enough. Here I can break a large infantry formation every turn.

You have to think what is the impact of taking one and it getting to activate every turn for three turns? Because that is what i am aiming for.

(And has pretty poor AA defenses)


Actually at your proposed AA5+ 360 thats the best in the game for a bomber I believe.


(orangesm @ Jul. 05 2007,18:56)
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You say that, but would you rather have 2 Marauder formations than a Basilisk Company.

If the Marauders were 250 for a pair with 3bp each (which is what they should have) quite possibly, depending on how I was going to build the rest of the army.

With 12BP ignore cover its better than Basilisks at chomping infantry. Yes it can't hold objectives etc but unless you are fighting a very slow army like ferals relying on arty to hold the blitz is rarely a good idea.

And of course as Neal said it all comes down to one dice roll. I've got a, what, 7% chance of killing it with every hit. If it goes down in flames is the game over?

And would it be 0-1 or could I risk 2? If that was the case the rest of the army would be dedicated flak killers and AA providers and I would see how far I could get with two 12bp barrages a turn.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: The Harbinger Bomber
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:17 pm 
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No offence intended E&C but I don't think you explored all the capabilities of air fully.


I find that aircraft tend to get quickly downed in my area, even with moderate AA, they never have much of an impact on the battlefield.


You have to think what is the impact of taking one and it getting to activate every turn for three turns? Because that is what i am aiming for.

A single point of damage and this beast is activating on a 4+... and it's only going to take two hits to do that damage... you have to factor likelyhood of activation into the cost, IMHO.



With 12BP ignore cover its better than Basilisks at chomping infantry.

6BP.




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nealhunt
 Post subject: The Harbinger Bomber
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:25 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jul. 05 2007,15:01)
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massive capabilities are dependent on a few all-or-nothing die rolls


Like a Titan...

No, not at all like a titan.

Setting aside the fact that air is in no way comparable to ground units in considerations of durability, the chance of a 450+ point WE destroyed by a single lucky hit from a 50-75 point unit is ridiculously remote.  For this thing it's ~1 in 12.

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orangesm
 Post subject: The Harbinger Bomber
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:27 pm 
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Uhm - support craft status?  :)  Does anyone know if AI outlines the unit's ability to hover?  Is it addressed or is it an unknown?  Is it mentioned in any fluff?  Would it be a giant leap to say it could hover?  Personally, I can't see something like that not having the ability to hover (imagine the runway they'd need to build for that!).  
Support Craft would increase the opportunities to destroy it making it less effective and probably less expensive.  It would also be in line with the Tau Manta.


The problem with comparing this to anything currently in Epic is it does not match up well with anything in Epic.  It is similar in size to a Manta, but it serves a very different function than a Manta, it serves a similar (not the same function) as a flight of Marauders, but is capable of sustaining damage equivalent to a flight of Marauders (and flies faster!).  It has the speed of a Thunderbolt.

Hovering and being able to 'maneuver' in a hover are very different things.  All the aircraft in the 40k universe are capable of 'hovering' to some degree or perform controlled crash landing every time (Orks and Imperial)  nothing has retractable wheels.  All the Chaos Aircraft have VTOL exhaust vents on their undersides - probably enough to get them off whatever surface they are on and then to accelerate to gain altitude.

I realize that there is a want to have it on the table as a miniature - but I think it would be best brought into the rules as a high altitude area attack that has the initial point scatter and then has small templates touching off of it creating a chain where a flight of Harbingers just dropped their bombs.

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Markconz
 Post subject: The Harbinger Bomber
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:36 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Jul. 05 2007,13:42)
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Powerful aircraft (especially WE aircraft) simply do not work in the Epic air system.  Even if you dial in the point cost dead on perfect, massive capabilities are dependent on a few all-or-nothing die rolls.  As such, it introduces a decisive factor based primarily on luck.

I agree that as a game mechanism they very random, and not something you want a lot of in a game if you are after a more skillful matchup. However, we already have a Landing Craft that is much worse than the proposals for this beast.

I think the Harbringer with current proposals would be one of those things that you would see now and again, but like LC's used more occasionally for something a bit crazy rather than a regular item.

Phoenix bombers are very good. 6 AT 4+ plus disrupt barrage, and shuriken catapults - do people really think this thing is worth that much? Or what about 2 vampires? 8 AT4+ and scatter lasers, plus two activations and transport capacity?
Sure the Harbringer can kill unarmoured infantry ok, but such infantry doesn't tend to be worth much, and this bomber can't can't do much else very well.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: The Harbinger Bomber
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:53 pm 
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Sure the Harbringer can kill unarmoured infantry ok, but such infantry doesn't tend to be worth much, and this bomber can't can't do much else very well.


My point exactly, this bomber isn't doing anything that you can't do elsewhere, with a unit that can sustain fire as well... I'm sticking by 450pts as a good starting cost for testing.





Setting aside the fact that air is in no way comparable to ground units in considerations of durability, the chance of a 450+ point WE destroyed by a single lucky hit from a 50-75 point unit is ridiculously remote.  For this thing it's ~1 in 12.

Then make criticals do an extra DC instead of the autokill... this aspect of the game system is under our influence.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: The Harbinger Bomber
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:38 pm 
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Then make criticals do an extra DC instead of the autokill... this aspect of the game system is under our influence.


Ok.

Same analysis as above, only you've now made it tougher.  I'd say it's 500 poitns easy.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: The Harbinger Bomber
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:41 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Jul. 06 2007,13:38)
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Then make criticals do an extra DC instead of the autokill... this aspect of the game system is under our influence.


Ok.

Same analysis as above, only you've now made it tougher.  I'd say it's 500 poitns easy.

Only now it's a little more reliable so you can stat/cost it appropriately.

I'm cool with that.

EDIT:

And it still can't hold ground or sustain fire... 450 pts.




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nealhunt
 Post subject: The Harbinger Bomber
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:25 pm 
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Comparable firepower to:

3 Phoenixes - 400 points
3 Firelords - 450 points
3 Marauders - ~400 points (estimated)

Your contention is that a ~20% increase in damage capacity (counting crits), no possible reduction in firepower until it's completely destroyed, and the best AA defense of any bomber formation in the game is worth 0-15% increase in points.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: The Harbinger Bomber
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:37 pm 
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Keep up the good work Boyz ... my Harbinger should be winging it's way from the UK next week !  :)  So you all should have it figured out by then ! :D

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Soren
 Post subject: The Harbinger Bomber
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 5:09 pm 
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It?s 30cm all round AA means you cannot get close to it without being shot. It has definitely better stats than 3 Phoenix Bombers and should be used rarely in a list. I would not know what to do against this monster beside of hoping and praying with the weak AA cover my Marines can provide.

Suggestion: 500


my 0,002 cents



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Chroma
 Post subject: The Harbinger Bomber
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 5:12 pm 
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(Soren @ Jul. 06 2007,17:09)
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Suggestion: 500

I'd say that whatever stats you give it, it should come to 550 points or so, so that you can't have *two* in 3000 points.

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Soren
 Post subject: The Harbinger Bomber
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 5:15 pm 
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2 of them would really be....scary

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