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Jervis talks, we listen

 Post subject: Jervis talks, we listen
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:48 pm 
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Hivemind - Tyranids, Iyanden, and somthing

Those are the obvious ones.

Ultramarines does not seem right to put in there (outside of Fluff) because you should be able to do a Space Marine army based on the core Space Marine list for almost whatever you want.  Possibly Black Templars, but that should probably be saved for an additional Chaos themed book.  Imperial Fist as a defensive Siege list - just have the defensive army in the background be Ultramarines.

But that is going the opposite direction than we should be - organize our effort on a few projects.

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 Post subject: Jervis talks, we listen
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:55 pm 
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My frustration stems from the fact that the living room book isn't so living.  I like the fact that EA has an active community, I just wish the changes/updates/clarifications that we so often use in our games were consolidated in one place on a more regular basis.  I'm sure new players would appreciate (and most likely expect) this as well.

I think updating the main rule book and the lists within should be on the top of the list.  Getting the new skimmer rules, barrage rules, list changes and errata into it would go a long way in making me happy.  I'm sure a couple of you would like that as well.

With regards of NetEA.  I think it is a good plan.  My only worry is that if SG gets rolling again  that some or all of the work put into NetEA would be dropped.

At any rate, I am happy to help with whatever is on the table.  As far as I'm concerned the more games I get the better.  I just wish I had more time to paint and play though :-P.

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 Post subject: Jervis talks, we listen
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:06 pm 
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(Dave @ Jul. 03 2007,11:55)
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?I just wish I had more time to paint and play though :-P.

Who doesn't.  :D  :laugh:

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 Post subject: Jervis talks, we listen
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:56 pm 
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Krieg Siegebreakers & unknown


That'd be Krieg Siegebreakers versus a non-Chaos rebel human army who will use the Barran Siegemasters armylist for in-game purposes. (Ie: There will only be 1 entirely new armylist in the suppliment).

I'm toying with the idea of including the White Scars in there as well, as the list is well-respected and also in need of a minor nudge (Warhounds @150pts heh).

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 Post subject: Jervis talks, we listen
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:20 pm 
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I did some messing around with the whitescars a while ago.  Linky

The changes were:

-Bikes shifted to 375pts a formation as they were considered slightly over priced
-Warhounds cost changed (D'oh)
-Terminators go up in cost (350 pts) in line with proposed SM rule changes and to reflect WS doctrines, however LR get a discount to encourage you to mount them in LR rather than T'Hawks.  This makes for a combined formation of 650pts which seems right and is the only source for LR in the list.
-Khan character introduced for 25ptsgiving an extra attack and leader.  These are only for bringing the bikes up to a round 400 points if you wish and adding some flavour to the iconic units.  Apparently the name Khan should refer to captains not leiutenants though.


Feel free to use, cannibalise or ignore :)

Also Heres the review thread started by chris that lead to this.

EDIT- that link should work now.  Sodding https protocols sneaking in unwanted  :confuse:





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 Post subject: Jervis talks, we listen
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:32 pm 
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(Hena @ Jul. 03 2007,11:40)
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Making more lists isn't as important as getting them balanced.

Hena,

I'd have to say at this point they are both important.  I agree that balancing the lists is important.  For Raiders, I specifically put out a request to the community for playtesting any of the three (thanks, by the way for the DE test - I am stunned actually at how balanced they came out after 4 iterations).  

At the same time, Raiders is still MONTHS away.  My hope is we can get a lot of playtesting done before it comes out.  Any changes won't affect the fluff or the pdf layouts.

And if I were to make a prediction, I'd say the next round of Necron changes will bring it in line.  

But the lesson I am learning is that it takes a lot of work to do these supplements - I now understand why it took SG so long to put out anything.  If we are going to succeed at any of these efforts, we need people to volunteer.  If we wait for these lists to be perfectly balanced it will take YEARS to put out anything.  Case in point: the SMs, IG, Eldar, Feral Orks, and Siegemasters are all in need of some level of fixing.  We need to be tolerant of some degree of imbalance.

With a NetEA committee, a more frequent review of the rules can be done, therefore certain 'slightly imbalanced' lists could be slotted for supplement building.  That would also address Dave's concerns as well.

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 Post subject: Jervis talks, we listen
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:45 pm 
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Link doesn't work.

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 Post subject: Jervis talks, we listen
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:58 pm 
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Yes Orks need some attention too. And i see a lack of alternative armylists for Orks. SpaceMarines, Eldar and now ImperialGuard are bristling with alternative armylists but Orks only have SpeedFreaks and if you count it too OGBM.

But foremost the core rules should be finished reviewing! Really it can't be THAT hard to finfish this in the course of then ext 2-3 month?
All the core armylist are dependant of the completing of this review.

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 Post subject: Jervis talks, we listen
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:26 pm 
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It seems to me that any changes we make or wehere we spend attention should be, in order of importance:

1) making any chages to core rules to be updated in living rulebook (initially in free to download PDF and eventually if EA rulebook is ever reprinted, in hard copy).
(core rules affect almost all armies- we have to make any changes BEFORE trying to balance & playtest existing/new armies).

2) making any changes to core list already published in print (i.e. 3 lists in each of EA rulebook & Swordwind, plus Whitescars, speedfreaks).

3) making any changes to core lists posted to SG website (e.g. Chaos, Nids, Necrons & Tau.
(we have to have at least basic balanced playtested lists for all of the main armies before worrying about more alternative IG/SM armies).

4) making any changes to alternative lists posted on SG website (e.g. Black Templars, variant SM/IG/Ork/Eldar lists).

5) making any changes to other alternative lists not yet published.

If we spend time playtesting and ensuring that new variant lists are balanced, is n't it time wasted if the core lists have not yet been changed. We could spend a lot of time ensuring that new lists are balanced compared to existing lists. But if exisiting lists need to change then we would have to go back and re do the playtesting on new lists.

Givene the declining number of players we need to ensure that those people who have the time to playtest lists are n't spreading their time to thinly.

Cheers

James

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 Post subject: Jervis talks, we listen
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:45 pm 
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1) - we are waiting :)

2) - Include Chaos in that

3) - I think concentrating on a few is good - Tau and Nids should be a priority followed by OGBM and Titans (also Core in their own way), then Necrons and others who lack models.

4 & 5) - Less fussed about this. these are labours of love for people so their enthusiasm should drive it.

Out of that only 1-3 are priorities, the others and Epic A version two can drift along until critical mass has built up again.

Really once 1 is done, 2 is pretty much there. Orks, Speedfreaks, Ferals, Guard, Siege, Whitescars - check, tis known what should be changed. Marines - maybe but everything is on table. Black Legion and Lost and Damned - unknown, still to early to say. 3 is a bit vague but could pick up once 1 is completed.

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 Post subject: Jervis talks, we listen
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:52 pm 
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James' priorities are spot on.

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 Post subject: Jervis talks, we listen
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:49 pm 
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I'm hoping to get the Ordo Malleus list finished with models painted relatively soon, if anyone is interested for these sorts of projects.

I think these projects are cool, and I'd like to see how they turn out. But it would be good if they were linked to the "official" Epic site in some manner.


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 Post subject: Jervis talks, we listen
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:05 pm 
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Well, this is precisely why everyone should PM Cybershadow with their thoughts, concerns, ideas, and abilities to volunteer (if possible).  All of these ideas, regardless of how accurate, will be worthless unless they are structured, focused, and executed.  That requires a committee of elected folks who will put together such a plan and then make that plan a reality.

Tactical Command provides an excellent location to hold elections, send out information, etc.  A committee will have more on their hands then just that list of 1st, 2nd, 3rd priorities...  The '0'th priority will be the general framework of the committee itself, how long their terms will be, how to handle special elections, how to address missing army champions (and there are a few), what level of control they will have over the rules and the lists, how to recruit new players, setting deadlines for changes, disclosure requirements, impeachment processes (yes I'm serious), etc.

If you don't do any of the above, I will bet you a buffalo nickel the NetEA committee member(s) will be asked to step down within weeks of stepping up, being derided as Nazi's, dictators, whatever.  Our best path is to set up an interim committee whose sole purpose will be to set up the rules under which the committee will operate under.  Have the interim committee selected by Cybershadow (sorry, the weights on you) but after that an election is held with the knowledge of what the permanent job entails posted, the nominees listed, and the polls tallied.

Now all this sounds really complicated after I go back and read it, but it isn't.  However, you can't ignore this 'dull' part of organizing netEA. :blues:

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 Post subject: Jervis talks, we listen
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:40 am 
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(Moscovian @ Jul. 03 2007,16:05)
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Well, this is precisely why everyone should PM Cybershadow with their thoughts, concerns, ideas, and abilities to volunteer (if possible). ?All of these ideas, regardless of how accurate, will be worthless unless they are structured, focused, and executed. ?That requires a committee of elected folks who will put together such a plan and then make that plan a reality.

Tactical Command provides an excellent location to hold elections, send out information, etc. ?A committee will have more on their hands then just that list of 1st, 2nd, 3rd priorities... ?The '0'th priority will be the general framework of the committee itself, how long their terms will be, how to handle special elections, how to address missing army champions (and there are a few), what level of control they will have over the rules and the lists, how to recruit new players, setting deadlines for changes, disclosure requirements, impeachment processes (yes I'm serious), etc.

If you don't do any of the above, I will bet you a buffalo nickel the NetEA committee member(s) will be asked to step down within weeks of stepping up, being derided as Nazi's, dictators, whatever. ?Our best path is to set up an interim committee whose sole purpose will be to set up the rules under which the committee will operate under. ?Have the interim committee selected by Cybershadow (sorry, the weights on you) but after that an election is held with the knowledge of what the permanent job entails posted, the nominees listed, and the polls tallied.

Now all this sounds really complicated after I go back and read it, but it isn't. ?However, you can't ignore this 'dull' part of organizing netEA. :blues:

Sadly you are correct about having to do this if you want progress to go anywhere and for this endeavor to be a success.

I used to be very active with the Agents of Gaming company (I wrote the last GROPOS book and compiled all of the errata for the game) and loved the B5Wars game. ?Very elegant system. ?There was a very active forums for the game, more active and more people than this website and the Epic part of the SG Forums put together. ?When AOG went under there was a lot of talk about keeping the rules and further development of the B5 Wars game going online. ?Almost immediately there was talk of forming a committee to guide development and make sure things ran smoothly. ?

Anybody who had any brains could see that this was needed. ?But when talk started to get serious the anarchists came out of the woodwork. ?Their primary argument was that the game did not need any dictators telling everyone else how to keep the game going. ?Democratic committees could do things just as well. ?The discussion turned very heated.

If you go to the B5 Wars forums they are still there and there are still some people who post, but it is a ghost of its former self. ?What litle traffic that is there from the few who still post is centered around anything new for Mongoose Games version of B5 spaceship combat, other games ported into the game system (poorly, too), Michael J. Strascynzki(sp?) rumors, and Battlestar Galactica.

In other words, a fantastic starship combat game that could have lived on with its players has virtually disappeared because the players could not trust each other and organize. ?If the Epic:A players do not organize then you can count on this game vaporizing also.

But the way I see it, it's even worse for Epic:A because of extenuating circumstances. ?GW/SG primarily. ?Until there is a formal pulling of the plug on SG then there will always be uncertainty among people and their loyalties. ?Does a person drop SG and go to NetEA? ?Does a person hold out hope that SG will be revived? ?What about official rules for conventions and tournaments? ?What about newby players and their brainwashing induced slavish adherence to the latest and greatest of GW and nobody else? ?At the very least GW needs to publically pull the plug and kill the name, even if they do keep selling the miniatures. ?It would be even better if GW/SG were to pass the mantle off to someone.

Another question: how many people are there that will actually participate? ?In case you haven't noticed there are few people that vote in the polls here and even less people who post in both of the forums. ?If you have army champions walking away and disappearing from official SG development then you need to seriously look at whether you have enough people here.

My suggestion: Form a development committee and formalize it. ?Line up people and make it look like we have our act together. ?Then the committee goes to GW/SG/Jervis and demand that the plug get pulled on Epic:Armageddon publically. ?If they will even reference NetEA then all the better. ?If GW ill give us webspace on the SG site then things will be great.

The NetEA Phoenix will not be born if the old ones doesn't die. ?Count on it. ?And count on another cold Epic winter.

PS: If we do organize, put me in for the AMTL Army Champion.   :p





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