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Cadres
Xisor
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:48 pm 
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Originally posted by Evil and Chaos
Fire Warriors are common, not that they are the core.


NO.

Fire Warriors are the bedrock upon which Tau armies should be built.

Currently, Fire Warriors are inferior to other available choices and are also unnessesary to the success of Tau armies in Epic.

It's an interesting choice of words, because, y'see: Bedrock is not core.

Foundation: perhaps.
Bulk: maybe.
Everpresent: it seems that way.
Core: Don't be daft.

The core is the operational bit of the army, as I see it, that it just cannot work without. A building is still a building if it's built upon a bedrock made of jelly.

Battlesuits, Hammerheads and the ilk are the core of the Tau Army. This is undeniable. They are the bits that actually do all the work. When was the last time that FW's took on tanks?

Anyhow, this is excessive semantics. Firewarriors should be a desirable part of the army, no one is disputing this.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:04 pm 
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Battlesuits, Hammerheads and the ilk are the core of the Tau Army. This is undeniable. They are the bits that actually do all the work. When was the last time that FW's took on tanks?


No.

If you want to get into real semantics, then there is no true core to the Tau army because they are a full combined-arms force.


No, Fire Warriors don't take out tanks, but then, that's not their purpose.

Fire Warriors take out enemy infantry, and provide numbers to hold ground when nessesary.


Both of those tasks are better/more cheaply fulfilled by other elements of the Tau armylist right now.

'nuff said.

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Xisor
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:49 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 10 2007,22:04)
QUOTE
If you want to get into real semantics, then there is no true core to the Tau army because they are a full combined-arms force.

Well it is evidently *not* enough said, and I do actually wish to get into the real semantics of the problem. Why wouldn't I?

If, then, as you say (and I agree, now) that there is no fixed core to the Tau Army, then it's not terribly surprising that this non-entity isn't Firewarriors. In that since it doesn't exist it cannot be Firewarriors. So its no surprise that they aren't it. Loopalicious.

Going then with the idea that Firewarriors are to be desirable, then it seems the only option is to undesirable other stuff if we're happy with what FWs are just now. And it seems we are, so it seems the course of action is quite clear.

So how do we sort it?

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asaura
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:46 am 
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There are two problems with FW.
1) 30 cm 5+ AP shooting attacks are not very useful, even in numbers.
2) 5+ Save is not very useful, either.

Infantry generally fights in cover, which means that everyone has a 5+ save (or better). In this regard, FW are not a lot better than human auxilia.

To get to shoot with 30 cm pulse rifles, the FW often need to Double, which results in 7+ to-hit numbers. This means 1 or 2 hits when the entire formation fires. Again, human aux can accomplish the same nothing that FW can, and they are cheaper and more numerous. When you Double the FW to a position they can fire from, you almost always make yourself vulnerable to an Engage attack, due to your short range.

Hena put it very nicely in an earlier post. It's not that the FWs are not ok infantry. They are ok. It's that there are better options in the current list. If I want footsloggers, I use humans.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:30 pm 
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Well then, I'd start by discounting the price on Fire Warriors. :D

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:38 pm 
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The firewarriors are great - just not the greatest thing in the list. 30cm firepower is for attacking (you need 45+ for defence). Mechanise the beasts and watch them go, they are extremely good - better when they had markerlights I guess but I'm slowly accepting losing them and having to attached pathfinders/have pathfinders nearby.

If a fw mech formation attacks a guard one it eats it for breakfast - and of course the guard excel at 30cms as well mech wise.

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mageboltrat
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:23 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Jun. 11 2007,17:38)
QUOTE
The firewarriors are great - just not the greatest thing in the list. 30cm firepower is for attacking (you need 45+ for defence). Mechanise the beasts and watch them go, they are extremely good - better when they had markerlights I guess but I'm slowly accepting losing them and having to attached pathfinders/have pathfinders nearby.

If a fw mech formation attacks a guard one it eats it for breakfast - and of course the guard excel at 30cms as well mech wise.

Is it possible that the FW need to have a cut in points and there transports need to go up? If FW aren't worth taking without transports?

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:12 am 
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like the fact that instead of commeting on the main point of my post you grab so to one small offhand comment

Well, Hena, why not just say what you propose for the Auxiliary instead. My issue with your post was that you tied in the nerfing of yet another unit. You've been on these boards for a long time so you should know that "offhand" comments don't look like offhand comments. If you don't expect return comments, please don't put them in ...

However! If you were looking for a pat on the back, then well done as I'm fine with your Auxiliary idea - it makes good sense to me. ;)

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:06 am 
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That is certainly an interesting idea ratty. But if people go with the auxillary altering that would in a way act as an incentive for the FW to be taken - then the fact they are best with transports should come with experience.

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GrayDL
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:04 pm 
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After reading through the whole thread it seems like many people want to make the FW better by nerfing some other units. However, there seem to be no suggestions on how to do that beside the auxilia reductions.

I have no experience with Epic Tau but have played them in 40K from day 1, and am also otherwise interested in Tau background. Based on this, a couple of ideas to revitalize the discussion (I hope:)):


*More focus for the main tank guns
-Currently they are very good at AP or AT and also good at the other.
-Give them a stronger focus in their primary role and incidental capability in the secondary.
-Something like 2+/6+ AT/AP for the rail gun and 6+/3+ for the ion cannon.
-This would make the AP firepower of fire warriors more useful, and force armoured units to take ion cannons if they want strong AP capability

*Add more incentives to make fire warriors mechanized
-Foot fire warriors are quite crappy in 40K, as they do not have heavy weapons which would be necessary for forming a strong long range firebase
-However, mounted fire warriors are extremely deadly when using a devilfish to get to a good firing position close to the enemy.
-This would point to giving a better firefight value. Are there other options to making them more useful in firefights rather than a FF value increase?

(this is more something that I have been wondering about, not a suggestion as such)
*Why is Tau armour so fast?
-Tau are not fast on the individual/tactical level, they are mobile! Why do Tau tanks have a speed of 30, like orks? Tank speeds: Eldar 35 - Orks - 30 Guard - 20 -> 25 would be much better and characterful than 30.
-Tau SHTs are as fast as eldar SHTs. Again a clear case for speed reduction ->20.
-Similarly, Tau infantry with Jet Packs should not be much faster than foot troops, just more mobile (ignore terrain, the evade engage move etc). Drones move at 30 currently! Jet Packs are not like jump packs. They move in a more controlled fashion, at about the same speed as someone on foot.
-To reiterate: The major Tau characteristic is Mobility, not Speed!
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:27 pm 
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Are there other options to making them more useful in firefights rather than a (simple) FF value increase?


I still think that giving FireWarriors +1 FF if the engaged formation is markerlit would be a perfect solution.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:07 pm 
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(GrayDL @ Jun. 20 2007,07:04)
QUOTE
After reading through the whole thread it seems like many people want to make the FW better by nerfing some other units. However, there seem to be no suggestions on how to do that beside the auxilia reductions.

Actually, there have been several suggestions on how to balance the FW, mine included, which is simply to remove tanks from the core.

The problem with the Tau is they are slightly overpowered (not just my opinion).  By doing anything but nerfing another formation or limiting the list in some way, you are pushing the list even more out of whack.

Your ideas for the AT2+/AP6+ might actually work, but this is one of those things that needs playtesting.  Ultimately, it still doesn't encourage the use of FWs.  People will use X number of Armored Cadres + Y number of Battlesuit Cadres to generate the maximum number of support formations without FWs.

Nerfing the speed on the armor seems like it has merit for solving other balance issues, but it still doesn't encourage FW use and I have no idea how it stands fluff wise (may be dead on or way off).

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:38 am 
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If what TRC is saying is true that they are better mech troops could giving the FWs Devilfish included in their points (or slightly more expensive) help make them more attractive?? You could still add Pathfinders as an upgrade with their own DFs and it will look more like an combined arms formation

Or

2x 4+ 30cm??? Instead of 4+ FF? They are supposed to be good shooters after all
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Jstr19
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:57 am 
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How about giving FW's a leader. At the moment we have to pay 75 points to give one unit of FW's in the army a leader stand. Human helpers cost 175 points and get one for free. You could have a 25 or so point upgrade to give one stand in the unit the leader ability. Fluff wise you could say that it adds a bonded Shas'la team to the formation.
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