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Tyranid Rules Issues

 Post subject: Tyranid Rules Issues
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:01 am 
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Hive Mind Points/Cards

The new system is IMO very poor.

The original system was based on the number of connected broods. The new system based on the points from the synapse broods gives a much lower amount of cards than the original system.

If you take a reasonable 4000pt army you may end up with somewhere in the vicintiy of 10-15 pts so 2-3 cards.

The original system gave you 3 cards for having only 1 connected slave unit and probably close to 5 or 6 cards for 11+ connected units.

It would not be hard to rewrite this to reflect the number of unbroken slave broods in the spirit of the old rules. This would get rid of the confusion of the "Hive Mind points" compared to "Hive Mind rating".


Mycetic Spores

Just need a clarification of what happens in the likely event of a brood landing and not all spores opening so some units are free and others still in spores and then going on instinctive orders. The main issue is coherency. What takes priority the coherency or the "must" wording of an insinctive order.

Biovore

when the spore drifts do you use scatter dice to determine direction


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 Post subject: Tyranid Rules Issues
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 4:04 am 
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More Issues

Superheavies

Dominatrix and Harridens are classed as superheavies.

How does the fact they have multiple wounds interact with the superheavy damage table?

Harriden description it is listed under a flier and makes no mention of if it is a superheavy.


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 Post subject: Tyranid Rules Issues
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:30 pm 
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Mycetic.

I'd vote Coherency because the alternative is ugly, but could easily see the fluff-logical justification for it.

Superheavies.

I'd be inclined to argue that all Tyranids ignore the Superheavy damage table, and count as Superheavy for pinning purposes only.  Bit of a bummer for the Trygon, but at 100 points I don't think it's unfair really.  The prospect of a 4 wound, regenerating Dominatrix also using the Superheavy table is a bit obscene.

Hive Mind

I think the intent of the new system is good....rewarding you for having more Synapse creatures is a more "logical" system.  Perhaps just tweak the ratings or the sytem slightly rather than re-write.  Maybe current system +1 automatic card for each living Dominatrix (so a Dom gives you 2 cards automatically), and a 4000 pointer that took one of each Synapse creature type would get 4 cards per turn IIRC.  

Over a 3 turn game (about average ?) the a "standard" 'Nid 4K force getting 12 or so cards would do as well or better than an equivalent Chaos or Ork force in the cards stakes I'd guess.

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 Post subject: Tyranid Rules Issues
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 11:06 pm 
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Mycetic

The original mycetic spore rules were that either the spore landed fine and the stand got out or the spore and stand was destroyed (2+ was the roll). This pretty much meant that once they landed you didn't have to worry about mobs being potentially left behind.


I don't think that Rampaging mobs would stand around waiting for others to get out of the spores. I'd rather go back to the dead or fine roll rather than a get out roll.

Superheavies
I'd agree that they should be superheavy for pinning purposes only but only the Dom states that.

You can also look at it this way - the damage table renders  the units wounds irrelevant.

on a 1 = No Effect (so no wound taken)
2-3 = Damaged and a second result destroys it
4-6 = Destroyed and removed.

Hive Mind

You are already limited in the number of units you can take under each synapse creature anyway.

Dom gives you 6 slots, the others give you 3 and the Harriden 1. This leads you to taking more synapse units anyway.

The amopunt of cards would be based say on 2+ 1/5 unbroken slave units or some thing like that.


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 Post subject: Tyranid Rules Issues
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:00 am 
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(OzTenaka @ Apr. 07 2007,20:01)
QUOTE
Hive Mind Points/Cards

The new system is IMO very poor.

The original system was based on the number of connected broods. The new system based on the points from the synapse broods gives a much lower amount of cards than the original system.

If you take a reasonable 4000pt army you may end up with somewhere in the vicintiy of 10-15 pts so 2-3 cards.

The original system gave you 3 cards for having only 1 connected slave unit and probably close to 5 or 6 cards for 11+ connected units.

It would not be hard to rewrite this to reflect the number of unbroken slave broods in the spirit of the old rules. This would get rid of the confusion of the "Hive Mind points" compared to "Hive Mind rating".


Mycetic Spores

Just need a clarification of what happens in the likely event of a brood landing and not all spores opening so some units are free and others still in spores and then going on instinctive orders. The main issue is coherency. What takes priority the coherency or the "must" wording of an insinctive order.

Biovore

when the spore drifts do you use scatter dice to determine direction

Hi!

As for the system that was put in place it tries to resolve several issues that the original system was found lacking.

If you got a new one or a reworking of this one, lets hear it.

I would say instinctive orders trump coherency.

I would think using the scatter dice is the easiest way to determine drift.

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 Post subject: Tyranid Rules Issues
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:04 am 
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(OzTenaka @ Apr. 07 2007,23:04)
QUOTE
More Issues

Superheavies

Dominatrix and Harridens are classed as superheavies.

How does the fact they have multiple wounds interact with the superheavy damage table?

Harridan description it is listed under a flier and makes no mention of if it is a superheavy.

Hi!

Tyranid creatures that are super heavy don't use damage tables, but the ones for creatures with multiple wounds.

I guess it needs to be cleared up.

Add the superheavy description to the harridans.

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 Post subject: Tyranid Rules Issues
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:07 am 
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(zap123 @ Apr. 08 2007,09:30)
QUOTE
Mycetic.

I'd vote Coherency because the alternative is ugly, but could easily see the fluff-logical justification for it.

Superheavies.

I'd be inclined to argue that all Tyranids ignore the Superheavy damage table, and count as Superheavy for pinning purposes only.  Bit of a bummer for the Trygon, but at 100 points I don't think it's unfair really.  The prospect of a 4 wound, regenerating Dominatrix also using the Superheavy table is a bit obscene.

Hive Mind

I think the intent of the new system is good....rewarding you for having more Synapse creatures is a more "logical" system.  Perhaps just tweak the ratings or the sytem slightly rather than re-write.  Maybe current system +1 automatic card for each living Dominatrix (so a Dom gives you 2 cards automatically), and a 4000 pointer that took one of each Synapse creature type would get 4 cards per turn IIRC.  

Over a 3 turn game (about average ?) the a "standard" 'Nid 4K force getting 12 or so cards would do as well or better than an equivalent Chaos or Ork force in the cards stakes I'd guess.

Hi

I would agree that the current hive card system could use some tweaking, but it is MUCH better in practice than the original system. I used it extensively and it has been tested by many for nearly ten years. Its pretty solid.

That being said, perhaps a revision of the values and thus how many cards are produced can be changed if it is deemed too small.

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 Post subject: Tyranid Rules Issues
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:09 am 
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(OzTenaka @ Apr. 08 2007,18:06)
QUOTE
Mycetic

The original mycetic spore rules were that either the spore landed fine and the stand got out or the spore and stand was destroyed (2+ was the roll). This pretty much meant that once they landed you didn't have to worry about mobs being potentially left behind.


I don't think that Rampaging mobs would stand around waiting for others to get out of the spores. I'd rather go back to the dead or fine roll rather than a get out roll.

Superheavies
I'd agree that they should be superheavy for pinning purposes only but only the Dom states that.

You can also look at it this way - the damage table renders  the units wounds irrelevant.

on a 1 = No Effect (so no wound taken)
2-3 = Damaged and a second result destroys it
4-6 = Destroyed and removed.

Hive Mind

You are already limited in the number of units you can take under each synapse creature anyway.

Dom gives you 6 slots, the others give you 3 and the Harriden 1. This leads you to taking more synapse units anyway.

The amopunt of cards would be based say on 2+ 1/5 unbroken slave units or some thing like that.

Hi!

The amopunt of cards would be based say on 2+ 1/5 unbroken slave units or some thing like that.


This sounds good. Its basically the same system but the cards are calculated differently.

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 Post subject: Tyranid Rules Issues
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:59 am 
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Just to recap the "Penetrating values modifiy both the Critical Hit roll, and also any subsequent roll for damage on the Critical Hit table." thingy, and to bring the "Wounds not successfully regenerated in the end phase become permanant" discussion to the correct place (what do you think OzT?).

Also some suggestions for the list.  

- Devourers - change the name to Ripper Swarms (?).
- Exocrines - there is a disadvantage to these being AA.  Someone suggested that AA is optional but I see that is the case for the Zoanthrope but not the Exocrine.  I'd suggest 2 seperate units (Exocrine and Exocrine AA?).  Normal version gets the current stats but no AA.  AA version basically the same but gets 3 shots, -1TSM, AA but no penetrating.
- Alternatively you could make the old, larger SM2 Biovores a dedicated AA unit....
- Perhaps the addition of a Winged Tyrant.  A single figure detachment using the stats of the Hive Tyrant but move 20cm.  Cost 100 points, Command points 2, Hive Mind 2.
- Perhaps the addition of a Scythed Heirodule....3 wound "Scout Bio-Titan" (just so we can compete with the E:A guys scratch-building their new Bug toys :) ).  Mobile, good CAF (10?), built in Pyro-Acid spray and no weapon options.  Give it a relatively easy critical table!

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 Post subject: Tyranid Rules Issues
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:07 pm 
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Hi!

Sound good to me.

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 Post subject: Tyranid Rules Issues
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:02 pm 
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Hi, i am again digging.

1. I see that in the 5.2 version of the tyranid army book, dominatrix give 10 Hive Mind Points. As a tyranid player, i think it's too much. Hive mind cards are very powerfull and the previous rules from the 5.0 version (5 HMP/Dominatrix) looks better for me.

2. I think that the clarification on tyranid superheavies in the "Multi-Wound creatures, Regeneration and Superheavies" rules page 5 of the tyranid army book v5.2 sounds really good as domi and other multiple-wound creatures shouldn't use the Superheavy damage table.
However, i think that the part on "Multi-Wound creatures and Regeneration" complicate the game needlesly. Keeping a track of the permanent wound and thoose wich can be regenerated is a bit boring in my opinion. I really like the proposition of Kotrin here : http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums....22;st=0 last message page 3
I would just keep the penetrating vs. bio-titans rule of the 5.2 instead of the Kotrin proposition and I would make an exception for critical damages inflicted to bio-titans that should inflict more wounds than the wound characteristic of the bio-titan.

3. There is a problem with the rules of mycetic spores in the tyranid army book v5.2.
We can read "Empty Spores are lost and count as destroyed for Break Point calculations."
So if i put a termagant brood (BP=5) in mycetic spores (BP+5), the brood will have a BP of 10. So, my opponent have just to let them go out of the spores to break my unit ? BP=10, 10 empty spores wich count as destroyed ??




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 Post subject: Tyranid Rules Issues
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:47 pm 
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Even if you disagree with my 1st and 2nd point, noone seems to mind about the 3rd one ?

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 Post subject: Tyranid Rules Issues
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:35 pm 
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Point 3: There's no problem about this rule. It's just in case you buy 5 Micetic spore and carry 3 Carniflex inside. The 2 empty spores that did no carry any troop count as destroyed for BP calculation.

About permanents wounds etc...It's not that hard to keep track of permanent wounds (dice, counters...). We played like this with Napalm on September and it was not problematic.




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 Post subject: Tyranid Rules Issues
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:33 pm 
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Scream, I didn't spoke about the 3 or 5 mycetic spores brood, but about the ten mycetic spores brood.

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 Post subject: Tyranid Rules Issues
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:24 pm 
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Only empty spores that are not filled with units inside (would have started the game with nothing inside) count as destroyed not the spores that have disembarked the transported troops.

10 mycetic spores + 10 termagants -> BP 5 + BP 5 = BP 10  no probem




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