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Tyranid v7.3.1
Lightbringer
 Post subject: Tyranid v7.3.1
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:07 pm 
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Me too - the current Screamer Killer is virtually useless and nobody uses it so if we are to use the SK model (which we all do) we might as well make it usable in some way.

This gets my vote.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Tyranid v7.3.1
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:59 pm 
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(Lightbringer @ Mar. 07 2007,11:07)
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Me too - the current Screamer Killer is virtually useless and nobody uses it so if we are to use the SK model (which we all do) we might as well make it usable in some way.

Well, I use them all the time, garrisoned with a Nexus or Tyrant, they're in the enemy's face in the first turn.  With a full swarm of fearless close combat specialists, you can stride right into the enemy's midst, even when you lose an engage.

Why do you feel the S-K version is useless?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tyranid v7.3.1
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:08 pm 
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I would not give the Bio-Plasma a 30cm ranged attack, since it's a close-combat ability.


Personally, I'd just delete the ranged Carnifex entirely for the moment.

'Nids have plenty of ranged weapons available in Epic scale (Zoanthrope, Biovore, Exocrine etc).


So my vote would be to drop the ranged Carnifex, and then balance the Screamer Killer Carnifex (A 20cm move would probably do that).

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Tyranid v7.3.1
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:37 am 
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The ranged attack based on Bio-Plasma harkens back to the 2nd edition days when a Bio Plasma attack was specific to Carnifexes (And was the reason they were called Screamer Killers. The plates rubbing in their throats to generate the bio-plasma created a loud screeching sound). They would generate plasma inside their bodies and use their claws to guide it towards the enemy with an internal EM field. This was a fairly powerful ranged attack IIRC, comparable with a Plasma Cannon, more then sufficient to destroy enemies at reasonable range.
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Chroma
 Post subject: Tyranid v7.3.1
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:49 am 
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(Ilushia @ Mar. 08 2007,01:37)
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The ranged attack based on Bio-Plasma harkens back to the 2nd edition days when a Bio Plasma attack was specific to Carnifexes...

The current incarnation of Bio-Plasma attacks are short-ranged, practically close combat effects and, unfortunately?, that's what we have to go by when designing the list.

So, the Carnifex should *not* have a ranged Bio-Plasma attack, other then, perhaps, as a Firefight effect, though a Close-Combat attack is much more likely.  Gargoyles also now have Bio-Plasma attacks as "standard", and they don't really need any kind of boost.

The Carnifex is still a work in progress I'm afraid.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Tyranid v7.3.1
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:34 am 
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Personally I'd much rather see Carnifexes move to 20cm movement or something similar. While under current rules they move the same rate as other infantry (Being Monstrous Creatures and thus moving 6" and charging 6") the fluff material and the past rules make them significantly faster. And given their primary background job of smashing apart tanks it seems like they should be faster then infantry... But that's just my opinion. It's not a massive change, but means they can run infantry into the ground as well as similar slow moving units. Unfortunately I have no way to test any of this, as currently I have no one to play against again (I haven't heard from Corey in months) let alone someone who plays Tyranids!
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Markconz
 Post subject: Tyranid v7.3.1
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:28 am 
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I would just call the screamer killer a 'carnifex'.

What it represents is all genuses of carnifex, but most of them being screamer killers.

Currently the only ranged options for a screamer killer are spine banks (spines in the carapace that provide a shooting attack). However I would be reluctant to give this more than a 15cm range given its 40k effects. Perhaps this could work though?  Reduce that 30cm range to 15cm and call it spine banks.

Another option would be to call the 6+, 6+ weapon a 'barbed strangler' (or venom cannon)  What this represents is that some carnifexes will have ranged weapons and some won't (eg like all marine squads have 'missile launchers' even though some will in reality have heavy bolters which shouldn't be AT, and all scouts have heavy bolters when in fact some have missile launchers that should have AT).  

I'd favour the spine banks option I think. 30cm is probably too much range anyway if we go with Screamer killers, rather than combo fexes (which are kind of unecessary given the exocrines).

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Markconz
 Post subject: Tyranid v7.3.1
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:20 am 
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(Hena @ Mar. 08 2007,07:47)
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So redo the fex then

So no ranged attack at all (bar FF)?

I'm happy with that - what about others?

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thurse
 Post subject: Tyranid v7.3.1
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:08 pm 
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I like the last one as the unique carnifex version Hena :
-Carnis should have MW CC
-with armor 3+ and FF5+, they remain good in FF ( they equal tactical marines ).

The problem I see is that with 15cm move, they rarely reach CC. But with fearless and garisonning, they can hold objectives and threaten the opponent deep in his liness.

By the way, why is the carnifex fearless? I like it that way but I was just wondering why...
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Lightbringer
 Post subject: Tyranid v7.3.1
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:17 pm 
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I like this version too, one question though - are these stats consistant with a 35 point unit?

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Tyranid v7.3.1
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:02 pm 
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(Hena @ Mar. 08 2007,02:58)
QUOTE

(Chroma @ Mar. 08 2007,03:49)
QUOTE
The current incarnation of Bio-Plasma attacks are short-ranged, practically close combat effects and, unfortunately?, that's what we have to go by when designing the list.

So, the Carnifex should *not* have a ranged Bio-Plasma attack, other then, perhaps, as a Firefight effect, though a Close-Combat attack is much more likely.  Gargoyles also now have Bio-Plasma attacks as "standard", and they don't really need any kind of boost.

OK, but wasn't there still a "Screamer Killer Carnifex" given in the 40k codex? What was it armed with and what range it's weapons were (I would assume they should be about same ...)? I haven't bought the codex for nids.

Screamer Killers under current 40K rules have 2 sets of Scything Talons, Venom Sacs, Bio-Plasma and often times Flesh Hooks (to let it move over vertically impassable terrain). None of which have ranged combat effect, but all of which add up to it being able to destroy infantry or tanks with equal ease. Occasionally you see them with other things like tusks to give them further attacks on the charge to make them more lethal, but that's somewhat rarer. As far as ranged weapons, yeah the only ones they have really are spine banks potentially. Though you can also give them spore cysts to let them dump out spore mines every turn if you want to (Much more effective on some kinda long-range carnifex, though).

To be honest I just can't see myself fielding these guys as they are. With Brood (3) they're not even very easy to use as shock troops where you take, say, a unit of flying Tyranid Warriors and some Gargoyles then use a spore to allow you to spawn a few Carnifexi to assault the enemy at the start of the next turn... About the only thing I could see them being useful for is attaching them to a Synapse node and being placed to defend one of my objectives. And even that seems like it'd be a lacking use of points.
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