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Tyranid AA weapons

Dobbsy

Post subject: Tyranid AA weapons

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:46 am

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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Hena - I like your idea for AA. Not sure I'd be happy with 3+ to hit though.

On the unkillable aspect - could we perhaps make a spore "generator" ground unit that once killed, it's spores become redundant? It would be kind of a hive mind contact for the spores. Just an idea anyway... I think E&Cs proposal for 40K spore mine minis would do the trick - i.e it's a big bloated bag and the spores get spewed out staying close to the BBB

to stay functional(i.e they are a 30cm AA attack marked from the mini - just as normal AA units). Heck we could call it a Spore Bloat.

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Tyranid AA weapons

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:03 am

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Location: London

Actually, though i know nowt about the 'nid army I do like aircraft. The idea of minefield in the air is a good one. Unkillable is not a problem, who complains that you can't remove sieger barbed wire?

However the to hit value seems a little high.

I would recomend for 50 points five 10cm x 5cm strips that count as dangerous terrain for aircraft (i.e. on a roll of one it falls from sky). In fact maybe a bit cheaper? Can be deployed as a move 0 unit.
Then the cunning part - now I don't quite understand nid rules for spawning, but how about giving each 10x5 strip a spawning value of 1 (have I got it right) so more clouds can float down to shield advancing broods at a cheap cost.

The stuff is fluffy, unique, not that strong but as the game continues aircraft ops get more and more difficult and the clouds darken over the board!

The use of a dangerous terrain test simply expands the current rules rather than making anew one, plus it doesn't allow a saving throw - indeed what use is armour or mobility when spores are clogging up the intakes and exploding all around you?

Indeed with the current rules aircraft could find spores dropping all around them in the 'nid version of the flak rush!

The current suggestions (4+ to hit etc) seem to me to be a way of shielding rt swarms, and also the chances of a hit are a bit good.

Edit, oh I see looking back to page 2 neals already pointed out the utility of the dangerous terrain test.

Edit you would need a limit of some sort, 1 per something you don't have much of? Or coming out of some allocation in the list?

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Hojyn

Post subject: Tyranid AA weapons

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:29 am

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Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:52 am
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TRC, I've got to say I love this idea!

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Tyranid AA weapons

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:53 pm

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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
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While I wouldn't go with strips (I'd prefer a radius based off of a discrete point sybolised by the Spore Mine model), because they're amorphous 'clouds' rather than controlled creatures moving in formation, I think the Dangerous Terrain Test idea could be a good one, and is quite unique.

Giving them a Spawning value is interesting too, as it allows the 'nid player to seed new AA over his troops as they assault into the enemy's half of the board...

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Tyranid AA weapons

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:18 pm

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The whole radius thing is fine in theory - but look at how much 30cm covers - 2827 square cm! Compared to 5 strips covering a total of 250 square cm. Strips may be a little uncloudy but are easy to model, easy to place, have a definate shape so no measuring required whilst people try to flay around the clouds and removes the problem of how many tests do you take if you cover 60cm of spore mines during your move (wehereas for every strip entered its a test). You could assume that was the densist band of spores in the cloud perhaps.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Tyranid AA weapons

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:38 pm

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You could cut the radius of the Spore Clouds down to 20cm or so...

I'm naturally hesitant to force Tyranid players to model a bunch of card strips if they want to have a decent AA presence... I'd far rather have a Spore Mine model and measure a radius from that, just like a normal AA unit, except it causes DTT's instead of an AA attack.

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orangesm

Post subject: Tyranid AA weapons

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:48 pm

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Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:50 pm
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While a circular cloud does cover a lot of ground, the aircraft would only have to make a single test to pass through each cloud. Other AA provides larger threat ranges and circles. 1 Battery of Hydras and 2 integrated Hydras will cover almost half a table with AA coverage and that is overlapping coverage.

3 30 cm radius circles provide complete coverage of a 180 cm (6') table. 2 Hydras can provide full coverage of table side (2 45 radius circles). If the Tyranids had 20 cm radius circles it takes a bit more than 4 to cover a table side.

Cheap AA makes things interesting.

The down side I see to the Difficult Terrain Test is that Aircraft like Thunderhawks and Landas are just as vulnerable as a Thunderbolt or Fighta to the Tyranid spore cloud.

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Moscovian

Post subject: Tyranid AA weapons

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:49 pm

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Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
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Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA

That AA cloud is a very clever idea... Scary, but clever.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Tyranid AA weapons

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:17 pm

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The down side I see to the Difficult Terrain Test is that Aircraft like Thunderhawks and Landas are just as vulnerable as a Thunderbolt or Fighta to the Tyranid spore cloud.

I agree that allowing armour saves might eventually turn out to be a better idea, but both systems have merit.

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Tyranid AA weapons

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:36 pm

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You take one point of damge from a failed test. A thuinderhawk won't come crashing down and you have same chance of doing a point of damge as a Hydra (2/3's to hit, 1/4 chance of getting through armour vs 1/6 chance of point of damage).

The radius thing simply covers too much ground - yes regular flak does, but it moves around, can die, marches etc. The garrison rules mean you could virtually block off your side of the board very easily - with 'fortifications' it a bit harder. How to point for the fact every enemy aircraft has to test to enter your side of the board?

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nealhunt

Post subject: Tyranid AA weapons

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:56 pm

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
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Location: Nashville, TN, USA

Obviously, I like the "terrain style" AA. I also like the idea of spawning more of them, though I think the cost would take quite a bit of testing.

TRC: I think the main problem is that strips are simply too easy for the aircraft to maneuver around. If you place them close to the swarm an aircraft would have enough flexibility in fire arcs that they could simply come in roughly parallel to the edge of the strips and fire at the edge of the arc without needing to ever cross them. If you place them farther from the swarm then they just fly around the end and attack.

(and yes, I realize that you don't have to use a linear deployment, but it's going to work the same for most layouts)

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Moscovian

Post subject: Tyranid AA weapons

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:18 pm

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Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
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Just thinking out loud (well, as loud as you can get in cyberspace)...
What about a radius that is fixed and decreasing by turn. Ex. 20cm from a single point on the first turn, 10cm on the second turn, disappears the third turn. If the radius sounds too big make it 15cm, 12cm, whatever.

You could easily represent it by placing a large red die on the board with the number 1 or 2 indicating what turn it hit the air.

Fancier folks could put down a ring of some material (pipe cleaners dressed up in Tyranid fashionwear) and make it easier to keep track of.

The decreasing radius would represent the AA spores falling to the ground, spreading to thin to remain effective, etc.

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Tyranid AA weapons

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:18 pm

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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
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Location: London

I did consider that - I think the main use would be to catch aircraft as they escape or provide air assault screens - bombers movement is somewhat inflexable, I can envisage set ups that would catch them, especially on the escape move. Hence the low cost for lots, you would need to set up an interesting layout to catch people (unless you were spawning them in aircraft flight paths).

Course, you could always have longer strips for those linear deployers out there!

I do think the radius thing covers a lot of ground, would be a lot harder to point and I don't know how you could fairly handle forward spawning - unless of course they are smaller radii.

I think the forward spawning is needed otherwise a deployment of the two forward objectives 30cm in one on each table edge and use of the garrison rules would limit flak cover considerably. Any other rules for the clouds deployment wise would be abused if they were unkillable. Say with a 30cm radius and deployment anywhere who wouldn't block off the enemy table edge with 3 of them? How to point that?

Also remember if you are spawning these things you could build up a fairly complext maxe for enemy air to cover, making operations more and more difficult.

Oh and on reflection any aircraft formation going through these things should get a bm for coming under fire, reguardless of a hit.

Cost wise I would go with how much of the army should be spent on flak - at 3000 points say 5-10% - and the aim of by turn three through initial deployment and spawning having any bomber coming onto the board finding it near impossible to dodge all the clouds. So turn 1 a hazard for enemy base edge attacks, an obsticle to hit garrisons. End of turn two a hazard accross the tyranid half of the board. End of turn three all over the place making even enemey baseline defence potentially tricky. How many templates of whatever size and shape needed to do that?

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Dobbsy

Post subject: Tyranid AA weapons

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:18 pm

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Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Sorry Hena - got mixed up with E&Cs proposal:

Meotic Spore Cloud

Type/ Speed/ Armour/ CC/ FF
LV/ Special/ 4+/ 3+/ 5+
Weapons/ Range/ Firepower
Spore Explosions / 25cm / AA3+

On the design of this AA - I see we're off on great leaps of design tangents again ... we're throwing ideas around that just add to special rulings etc. I'll say it again - KISS.

I don't want to have to lay mine "strips" across the table - there's enough complication in using/fighting this army as it is! Not to mention it would be very annoying to have them laying across minis etc. Even if you mount them on flying stands, how high do you make them? How do you angle them when terrain blocks their placement? What the heck do they look like as a model?

Can we just have an AA unit with a standard AA attack. i.e 30cm reach based from a single miniature? Please? This makes far more sense to me and helps everyone in-play know what to expect.

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