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Rogue Trader Fleet Guide & Analysis

 Post subject: Rogue Trader Fleet Guide & Analysis
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:13 pm 
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Ooooops! You have a point there, because i thought there was a sector creation rule in BFG! OK, so, we should begin thinking about devising one... Does anyone know the different kind of worlds which can be found in the 40k universe and the rough percentaje of those (i mean, something like "half of them are lifeless, 10% medieval, whatever else x% and the like)?

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 Post subject: Rogue Trader Fleet Guide & Analysis
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:18 pm 
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Look what I found in the yahoo group, useable:

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 Post subject: Rogue Trader Fleet Guide & Analysis
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:23 pm 
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Now i think i'm going to answer myself. The kind of worlds available are(and my estimation of proportions):

- Agriworlds (20%)
- Penal (4%)
- Mining (15%)
- Forgeworlds (10%)
- Hiveworlds (10%)
- Pirate bases (3%?)
- Civilised (8%)
- Uninhabited (30%)

And maybe the civilised world score should be even lower...
Suggestions?

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 Post subject: Rogue Trader Fleet Guide & Analysis
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:24 pm 
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hahaha, you posted it while i was writing my message... good! a lot less work to do :)

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 Post subject: Rogue Trader Fleet Guide & Analysis
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:27 pm 
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(Yuber Okami @ Feb. 14 2007,14:13)
QUOTE
Ooooops! You have a point there, because i thought there was a sector creation rule in BFG! OK, so, we should begin thinking about devising one... Does anyone know the different kind of worlds which can be found in the 40k universe and the rough percentaje of those (i mean, something like "half of them are lifeless, 10% medieval, whatever else x% and the like)?

I thought I read something about that in a BFG-mag if I'm not mistaken. I'll have a look and see if I can find it.
I've found my rogue trader list ( see attachment). I think we should start too look at the Rogue Trader Cruiser. My version has the option of choosing to of the xeno-tech option found in the original rules, and the option to change part of its broadside weaponry for launchbays (fighters and a-boats only). I think launchbays are a must for a rogue trader, most likely these ships will have to do some piracy, and you can just blow your prey to tiny atoms without destroying the loot. Also I think that a rogue trader needs a lot more ship to ship transport capabilities then a "standard"cruiser, for transporting goods to and from the RT-cruiser. hence the launchbays.

But I think these vessels need more weapon options, perhaps even some xenos-options ( tau weapons for example). So why don't we create a standard RT-cruiser chasis, with several weapon slots, give the Rogue Trader a ton of customazation( spell? I'm dutch  :( ) options?

Well have a look at my list, its been a while since I've created it, but it would be great to have some comments on it by some more experienced BFG'ers

cheers!


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 Post subject: Rogue Trader Fleet Guide & Analysis
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:28 pm 
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damn you guys are quick today! be you eldar? :p


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 Post subject: Rogue Trader Fleet Guide & Analysis
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:30 pm 
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Great! I'll have a detailed look at it later.

I am Dutch as well! (...feeling ears....nope no Eldar)

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 Post subject: Rogue Trader Fleet Guide & Analysis
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:33 pm 
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(blackhorizon @ Feb. 14 2007,14:30)
QUOTE
Great! I'll have a detailed look at it later.

I am Dutch as well! (...feeling ears....nope no Eldar)

Ah that would be great, well I'm off to do some more studying. I'll get back to you guys later on. Hope you like my list.

Ah nice, a fellow dutchman  :)

edit: Just a thought. How about addind Hawking exploration cruisers to the fleetlist? I think they would fit right in, and it might add another interesting ship to the list. Perhaps to rules need some tweaking, I think the hawking is a bit expensieve at the moment.






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 Post subject: Rogue Trader Fleet Guide & Analysis
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:58 pm 
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Hell, i'm working with a bunch of heretics! Wait until i tell de Alva about you! (now you should try to guess which country i'm from :p)

Curious list, specially for the recomissioned frigate and the light carrier (although i feel it to be too light, as an auxiliary carrier would have the same amount of launching, although with -1 Ld).

What about that RT cruiser hull?

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 Post subject: Rogue Trader Fleet Guide & Analysis
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:42 pm 
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I would like to help with this project as well and feel I can contribute a few things of use to it.

Now heres an idea for the economics system and I will confess its largely inspired by the PC game EVE Online- Ive been playing it for a few years now (I highly recommend trying the trial version).  I think that the cost of certain retrofits, purchases and upgrades would largely depend upon your standing with local factions in the sector.  So perhaps we should devise a way of measuring your standing with perhaps four different factions?  Depending on your standing certain ships/upgrades are available and for varying prices.  It may get too complicated but how about this:

Faction 1:  Local imperial citizenry-  High standing means you can more easily repair your ships of human make and acquire more human originated tech.

Faction 2:  Local alien presence (traders?)- High standing grants you access to advanced xeno upgrades.  This can manifest as additional xeno subsystem upgrades, being able to carry more, or just weapons that your ships could usually not carry like Lances (make up an alien name for them) for your RT cruiser.  Can grant access to Xeno transport and trade ships.

Faction 3:  Raiders-  High standing will grant you access to upgrades for speed, manuverability, and a measure of protection from overly large assaults on your convoys or supply lines.  Higher standing equates to less points being available for attackers during convoy scenario where RT is defender if attacked by pirates and the like.

Faction 4:  Local Xeno mini empire-  High standing will grant you access to more powerful xeno mercenary ships, eventually being able to field cruiser type ships.  High standing with this faction will also grant defensive upgrades to your RT's flagship cruiser.  If you do not have a new xeno race made up, you can substitute Demiurg for the new xenos.

In the context of a campaign, you have a list of different missions to choose from.  Each mission will serve the purposes of a different faction and grant you reputation to them and perhaps a lesser amount of reputation to another a second faction.  After each mission your faction standing is altered and you proceed to your next mission.  It should be noted that accepting missions and jobs that are in direct conflict with another faction's interests can lower your standing with a faction.

I think that standing should be divided into at least 6 tiers and thus when doing one-off games you can just roll a D6 for standings with the understanding that you may auto pass a single roll for one faction to prevent you from getting low standing with all factions before the game.

1:  Nemesis-  These individuals curse your name, dream of your violent demise and would happily dance and defecate upon your grave given the ability and opportunity.  You may not trade with this faction or purchase from them.  You may only gain faction standing via secondary increase (i.e. running missions for another faction that have a secondary positive impact upon this faction.)

2:  Enemy-  You are an enemy that is to be gunned down given the opportunity.  However you are not so utterly hated that this faction will not allow you some of their services at a higher cost.  Repairing ships with this faction costs double points and only basic upgrades are able to be purchased at triple their standard cost.  You may do missions for this facton but you will only receive 50% of the standard set pay and faction gain.

3:  Unfriendly-  They don't know you and thus don't trust you.  You are possibly regarded as a target of opportunity or an outsider.  Your coin, however, is something they are familiar with and thus you may:  Buy basic ships from this faction at 150% the normal cost, repair your ships for 150% the normal cost and purchase basic and average upgrades at 150% of the normal cost.  Missions grant 75% standard pay and reputation.

4:  Neutral-  They know you and know of your works.  They have no grudge against you and would like to know more about you and possibly create new trade deals.  Missions grant 100% normal pay and reputation.  You may repair ships with this faction at 110% cost.  You may buy basic and average ships and upgrades from this faction at 110% the normal cost and may have access to their more medium quality craft at 150% normal cost (medium quality = heavy transports, Q-ships, Alien transports, basic unupgraded light cruisers.

5:  Friendly-  They trust you and believe you can be depended upon to accomplish goals in their interests.  Missions earn 100% Reputation and 110% pay.  You may purchase basic, average and high quality upgrades at 100% cost.  You may purchase average, medium and high quality ships (high quality= 140-160 pt cruisers, superior 'raider' type ships and upgraded heavy transports/utility ships) if they are a faction that makes ships available to you.  You may repair your ships at normal cost with this standing.

6:  Heroic-  You are regarded as a champion of the cause and are a trusted ally, even if you are by chance not of the same species.  Missions earn 115% pay and 100% reputation.  If the faction sells upgrades you may purchase any upgrade at 100% of it's normal cost (average, medium, high and advanced quality).  If they sell you ships you may even purchase a warship/ a warship's service at normal cost.  (Any ships this faction may make available to you are available to you.  You may buy basic, average, high and advanced ships from them.  Advanced would qualify as a roughly 200 point cruiser.  Only one such ship may be purchased of each class available.  If this faction sells ships but not warships you may purchase a highly advanced transport.).  Repairing ships costs 90% of the normal cost with this standing.

I guess that the system I've given an example of requires us to lob upgrades and purchasable ships and add ons into 4 categories.  I think that each faction should offer advanced equipment at higher levels of reputation.  For example an advanced trade ship may only be available from the Xeno merchant faction.  It could be a heavy transport with enhanced survivability or resilience and increased carrying capacity (it counts as 3 or more transports)

There can ofcourse be more than 4 factions but an example of how reputation and secondary reputation could work is as follows:

The faction that has employed you will give you X% of the missions reputation worth as denoted by your faction standing with them.  You will gain 50% of the faction standing with a second faction that the mission would benefit as well (i.e. you fight off and hurt a raider force then you gain rep with the Xeno traders as the space lanes are a little safer or the Xeno mini empire as they respect your battle prowess more).  But you also lose 75% of the mission's faction standing with the faction who the mission is oriented against.

Hokai- Im done for now- sorry that it was so long winded.





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 Post subject: Rogue Trader Fleet Guide & Analysis
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:59 pm 
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(Yuber Okami @ Feb. 14 2007,14:58)
QUOTE
Hell, i'm working with a bunch of heretics! Wait until i tell de Alva about you! (now you should try to guess which country i'm from :p)

Curious list, specially for the recomissioned frigate and the light carrier (although i feel it to be too light, as an auxiliary carrier would have the same amount of launching, although with -1 Ld).

What about that RT cruiser hull?

strange to be the heretic for a change ;) Although it feels kinda nice to ( owh dear, possible chaos taint here ;))

I've kept the light carrier low on the launch bays as I didn't see rogue traders as having that much ordinance, and as you might notice, it may only launch fighters and aboats. I think that in a rogue trader fleet there will some ordinance carring vessels, but not to much, just from an economical standpoint though.
The light carrier, as it stands, has the same amount of launchbays as a defiant light cruiser, but less firepower and hits. Perhaps we could up the hitpoints of the light carrier to 6 and dropping the shields down to 1, bringing it to light cruiser status?

About the RT cruiser hull:
I suggest a basic Imperial hull with 2 broadside slots and one prow slot. Basic weaponry can then be added as by the Smotherman formula ( which blackhorizon can hopefull dig up)

Basic Imperial hull:

Type/hits : cruiser/8
speed      : 20cm
turns        : 45
Shields     : 2
armour     : 5+
Turrets     : 2


About the economics system. I like the fractions idea, but I think it needs some streamlining. It seems to awkward now with all the % and such, but that could just be me after a day studying Dynamic Analysis, eigenfrequences and modes ;).

if we decide to go with the fractions idea ( which I like ) we should first decide on some basics, like basic hull designs, and commonly available technologies. Is our goal to make RT-fleets a part of BFG, thus fighting like a regular raiding fleet, or are we looking for a subgame? In the last case, we need something of a "fleet rating system" to create balanced fleets, much like the warband rating system in mordhem.

Well thats all for now I guess. What do you guys thing about the overall desgins I proposed in my fleetlist though?


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 Post subject: Rogue Trader Fleet Guide & Analysis
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:16 pm 
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For now:

Smotherman Formula

Tomorrow more.

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 Post subject: Rogue Trader Fleet Guide & Analysis
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:09 am 
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Ah great, thanks Blackhorizon.
Our humble basic RT-Trader hull ( as stated above) comes down to 85 ( 84 to be exact) points.

I'm wondering about the launchbays. I think fluffwise it would be logical for Rogue Traders to have acces to a-boats ( them being kinda piraty-like and stuff) and not to bombers ( why blow up the loot). But how do we rate them? Smotherman gives Imperial Bays ( without aboats) 13.5 points and Chaos Bays ( with aboats) 17 points. I think we need to middle here, just to be safe. So I would say: RT Bays ( fighters and a-boats) 15 points.

This way, the RT-cruiser from my list would come out at 190 points without the special xenos-upgrade.

But back towards out RT-cruiser hull, do you all agree with the basic Imperial Hull I posted above? Then we could establish some maximum ranges and strength for the weapons on our RT-cruiser.
well, I'm off to bed now, more tomorrow :)


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 Post subject: Rogue Trader Fleet Guide & Analysis
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:09 am 
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For now:
First objective is like Yuber Okami mentions: We should make a valid Rogue Trader fleet for use in a regular Battlefleet Gothic Game. Using normal rules.
Later we should move on to expand the ?Warrant of Trade?, economics, rogue trader campaign.

So, what do we want in BFG with Rogue Traders? I personally cannot see a Rogue Trader fleet above 1500 points as that would start to rival Imperial Battlefleets. To me I think Rogue Trader merchant fleets are best suited up to 750-1000 points.

As for the basic hull, I would even tune it down and make 3 categories, it is not a give Imperial Hulls are always used!



Basic Cruiser hull
Hitpoints: 8
Speed: 15cm
Armour: 4+
Turns: 45*
Turrets: 1
Shields: 1

Weapon Hardpoints:
Prow ? 1
Starboard ? 2
Port ? 2
Dorsal ? 1 (expensive!!)

Medium Cruiser hull
Hitpoints: 6
Speed: 15cm
Armour: 4+
Turns: 45*
Turrets: 1
Shields: 1

Weapon Hardpoints:
Prow ? 1
Starboard ? 1,5 (example : instead of 4 strength batteries, the half means 2 strength batteries)
Port ? 1,5
Dorsal ? 1 (expensive!!)

Light Cruiser hull
Hitpoints: 4
Speed: 15cm
Armour: 4+
Turns: 45*
Turrets: 1
Shields: 1

Weapon Hardpoints:
Prow ? 1
Starboard ? 1
Port ? 1
Dorsal ? 1 (expensive!!)

Basic Hull Upgrades
Hits: 5 points per hitpoint max of +2 per hull type.
Shields: 10 points per shield, max of 3 shields (each hull)
Turrets: 5 points per turret, max of 3 turrets (each hull)
Armour: 10 points for 1 extra point of armour (5+ all round)
Armour: 50 points for 2 extra point of armour (6+ all round)
Armour: 32,50 points for 6+ armoured prow
Speed: * +5cm at +5 points,
* +10cm at +15 points
* +15cm at + 30 points
capped at a maximum speed of 30cm for each hull type.



Oh, the sector generator I posted isn't useable...

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 Post subject: Rogue Trader Fleet Guide & Analysis
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:44 am 
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allright, I agree with you on the objective. I think that a rogue trader fleet should max out at 1000 point. The way I see Rogue Traders in BFG is that of a exotic smallish flottila full of strange or modifed ships. There should not be to many heavy warships and you should have several merchant-vessels in your fleet, you're a trader afteral. Be it a trader armed to the teeth, but a trader non the less. I also think that the flagship should be the most extravagant ship in the fleet. Rogue Traders being who they are, they'll be travelling on the nicest ship right? I think the overall fleet should have a Raider Fleet feel, most certainly not a battlefleet feel!

I like your basic breakdown of the different hulls, this gives us many options for custom cruisers! which I really like :). What are the basic points costs you had in mind for the basic hulls? Smotherman gives the following:

Basic Cruiser Hull: 58 points ( 60)
Medium Cruiser Hull: 48 Points ( 50)
Light Cruiser Hull : 38 points (40)

Whats your take on the various weapon hardpoints? How much Firepower should they have? The standard 6 fp/30cm for a full hardpoint? I think that would be reasonable. Also, could we include an option ( expensive) to make the prow hardpoint a LFR hardpoint?

Also, how about the extra "goodies"? I'm thinking about several nice little upgrades for your basic RT-hull.

Targetting Matrix 20 points
Weapon batteries gain a left collum shift and may reroll one missed lance each turn

Tau torpedoes +10 points
A Rogue Trader may ugrade his torpedo launchers to Tau Missles for 10 points ( so this is on top of the cost of the standard torpedo launcher)

Long range sensors 5 points
Doubles the test bonus for enemy contacts from +1 to +2

Advanced trusters 10 points
+1D6 on AAF

Personally, I think we need more of these upgrades, and more xenos upgrades. Exotic stuff the rogue trader has aquired and fitted onto his ship.
Well thats all for now, I'm off. I check back with you guys on monday ( going to my girlfriend this afternoon)






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