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Vindicator
Nothing new 10%  10%  [ 3 ]
Upgrade FF by 1 to 3+ 19%  19%  [ 6 ]
Change weapon to Thunderer Cannon and give +1 EA 19%  19%  [ 6 ]
Something else, see below 52%  52%  [ 16 ]
Total votes : 31

Vindicator
BlackLegion
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:12 pm 
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Another thing i'm thinking about.

A Marine suqad is usually 10 men strong with one heavy weapon, but in epic each stand of 5marines gets a MissileLauncher shot. But the ImperialGuard gets only 1 shot per two stands.

I always envisioned this, that Marines are  a big deal better trained than imperial guard and tho have the ability to shoot twice on the epic level.

Soi sugest vor the Vindicator a double shot:

Demolisher 30cm 2x AP3+AT4+ IgnoreCover
Notes: SpaceMarines are highly trainied in the use of their weapon and the Vindicator is equipped with advanced reloading mechnisms. Thus they can fire twice as often with the Demolisher as their ImperialGuard equivalent.

What do you think?




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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:27 pm 
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I think:

1) Demolisher cannons should be MW4+ whatever chassis they're on. They should simply be more powerful - they're a siege weapon, ignoring armour seems quite right.

2) I don't think anything is being done about Demolishers in the IG list as it isn't a glaring problem. Doesn't mean we can't TRY and get it changed to MW4+.

3) Renaming the weapon is possible but I really don't like it. Vindicators should have demolishers and we should really stick to that unless totally impossible.

4) The MW4+ fix for SM would be worthwhile to pursue, the "Marines don't have any MW" issue has been around for a while.

5) I don't really support extra attacks in FF. Demolishers should just go BOOM! They don't rapid fire or blast huge areas. Also the Vindicator should NOT be a better firefight tank than the Demolisher with all it's weapons.

6) Not sure it needs to keep Ignore Cover - no cover saves against MW weapons anyway, and it isn't like it is a flame weapon - it just blasts the cover out of the way. MW alone looks fine to me.

Personally I'm doubtful any real change is going to happen here, but we can always give it a go...
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consectari
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:24 am 
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(Lord Inquisitor @ Oct. 17 2006,17:27)
QUOTE
1) Demolisher cannons should be MW4+ whatever chassis they're on. They should simply be more powerful - they're a siege weapon, ignoring armour seems quite right.

I think this is just as valid an argument for keeping ingore cover.  There is no real reason to drop ignore cover, but it isn't a big deal.

Personally I'm doubtful any real change is going to happen here, but we can always give it a go...


I'm beginning to think maybe a Marine Champion might be needed afterall.

Clearly some changes are needed, but will they be implemented without a Champion.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:52 am 
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(BlackLegion @ Oct. 17 2006,22:12)
QUOTE
Another thing i'm thinking about.

A Marine suqad is usually 10 men strong with one heavy weapon, but in epic each stand of 5marines gets a MissileLauncher shot. But the ImperialGuard gets only 1 shot per two stands.

Actually Marine Tactical / Devestator squads can legally take that ammount of firepower in 5-man tactical squads.

In fact a Tactical Platoon (6x5 Marines, each with a missile launcher) neatly fills up the entire Troops allocation in a standard 40k force-organisation chart. Cute.


Clearly some changes are needed, but will they be implemented without a Champion.


There are actually more issues with the Marine list than is first apparent; I agree a Champion seems to be needed.




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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:02 am 
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Yes but i never liked the idea of 5 man squads.

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netepic
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:27 am 
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5 man squads are fine with me, to be honest I see them more as fire teams.

In fact, I wouldn't be overly concerned at four man teams, they are special ops, large squads reduce there flexibility.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:53 am 
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Yes but tactical companies are supposed to have 6 tactical squads. If they all where only 5 men strong then this would make a very small company, doesn't it?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:02 pm 
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(BlackLegion @ Oct. 18 2006,09:53)
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Yes but tactical companies are supposed to have 6 tactical squads. If they all where only 5 men strong then this would make a very small company, doesn't it?

You mean 'Battle Companies'; Tactical Companies have 10 tactical squads, they're tactical-only. Battle Companies are the mixed ones (Companies 2-5).


The terminology for the 5-man Marine squads in the Background is 'demi-squad'. These are exactly as Netepic suggests, semi-ad-hoc 5-man teams that support each other as part of the larger 10-man squad.

One demi-squad advances, the other provides cover, then they switch roles, etc.

The game of 40k fudges this somewhat, as it's meant to be able to be played by tiddlers, thus it needs simpler explanations for the organisation of a Marine Chapter. (1000 Marines... then who flies the Thunderhawks!?!) :D

So yes, Battle Companies have 6 Tactical Squads, which are made of 12 Demi-Squads.


Okay, I officially know too much fluff. :D

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:15 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 18 2006,11:02)
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The terminology for the 5-man Marine squads in the Background is 'demi-squad'. These are exactly as Netepic suggests, semi-ad-hoc 5-man teams that support each other as part of the larger 10-man squad.

Actually, they're called "combat squads," ( :p ) and in codex organisation they are a 10-man squad with one heavy and one special weapon split into two. The heavy goes into one, the special into the other. One combat squad is lead by the sergeant, the other by the "squad leader" if my memory serves me right.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:39 pm 
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(Lord Inquisitor @ Oct. 18 2006,18:15)
QUOTE

(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 18 2006,11:02)
QUOTE
The terminology for the 5-man Marine squads in the Background is 'demi-squad'. These are exactly as Netepic suggests, semi-ad-hoc 5-man teams that support each other as part of the larger 10-man squad.

Actually, they're called "combat squads," ( :p ) and in codex organisation they are a 10-man squad with one heavy and one special weapon split into two. The heavy goes into one, the special into the other. One combat squad is lead by the sergeant, the other by the "squad leader" if my memory serves me right.

That'd be the fluff-lite version from the Codexes... I'm working from the info found in the more fluff-heavy Imperial Armour books. :)

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:18 pm 
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Oh, that's from the older (2nd ed) codexes. But if IA is contradicting that then fair enough...
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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:23 am 
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Actually, what they're called probably differs based on which printing of the Codex Astartes you follow.  For all we know, it's just even/odd squad numbers, and they just call 'Evens and Odds' to deploy in combat squads (2nd ed) or demi-squads (IA2).

Both of which are a long way from Vindicators.  

I'm OK with 30cm MW4+ as the Vindicator's weapon, but I think that Ignore Cover is overkill.  The Vindicator's weapon is line of sight, and does not necessarily ignore cover in 40k (If the shell lands behind a wall, the blast denies cover saves, but if the shell lands in area terrain it still allows cover saves), so I don't think that Ignore Cover is warranted in this case.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:17 am 
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Vindis are just rubbish.

They need MW at a minimum.

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Morg
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 2:44 pm 
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I don't know how the Vindicator is supposed to work in 40k, but the Imperial Armoury pictures the cannon as good way for collapsing buildings and laying siege. I am afraid that removing the Ignore Cover trait also removes some tactical flavor from the Marines list.

I'd rather see a 4+ MW with Ignore Cover (which is a 5+ anyway as you have to double to get in range) as this is some kind of incentive to use it in the way characterized above (laying siege on fortified positions).




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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:46 pm 
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Like I said, the fact that the MW ignores Cover Saves would be enough IMO... It doesn't really need Ignore Cover as well.

Then again, you have a point that most of the time you're going to be doubling to fire the thing. That said, the 30cm range is the disadvantage to demolishers: they should be tricky to use.

Bah, I don't know. I would be happy if they kept Ignore Cover or if they didn't.
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