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Scout Bikes?

 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:27 pm 
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Why are you reducing their armor?

Don't they have the same SM toughness plus the same boost for riding a bike and the same (in Epic) factors with respect to speed/maneuver affecting targetting?  Maybe I'm not recalling the 40K stats correctly but isn't the armor only reduced by 1?  In the face of all the other factors that go into armor value in Epic, I don't think going from 3+ armor to 4+ in 40K warrants a reduction at Epic scale.

I'd say drop the FF (justified as less effective coordination of fire rather than less lead going downrange) and give them scout and have them cost the same.

As noted by others, 35cm move + infiltrate is a bad idea.

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 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:44 pm 
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@neilhunt:  IIRC Isnt E:A SM scout armour a 5+?  

SM dont get an armour boost for being on a bike in epic terms, so why would scouts?

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 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 2:20 pm 
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I think the best way to represent scout bikers in Epic is to keep it simple.

Thus -

- Change their Armour stat to 5+ (The same as normal Marine scouts)
- Give them scout
- Don't allow them to use attack bikes.


That's it really. Infiltrate is too powerful to give since they can already Garrison with the scout ability.

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 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 2:20 pm 
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Like I said, maybe I'm not recalling the 40K stats correctly.  I was thinking Scout bikes had the same T, 4+ armor save, and a bonus to difficult terrain checks (which could translate to Epic as armor saves due to increased use of "local" terrain).

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 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 2:27 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Oct. 09 2006,14:20)
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Like I said, maybe I'm not recalling the 40K stats correctly.  I was thinking Scout bikes had the same T, 4+ armor save, and a bonus to difficult terrain checks (which could translate to Epic as armor saves due to increased use of "local" terrain).

They do have all that, but if normal Marines on Bikes don't have a bonus to their armour save in Epic (Going from 4+ to 3+), then it would be against precendent to give Scout Bikers a bonus (Going from 5+ to 4+).

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 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 2:27 pm 
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According to the actual Codex: Space Marines ScoutBikes aren't equipped with chainswords.
They have exactly the same weapons as SpaceMarineBikes (twin-linked Bolters and Frag-grenades).
But SpaceMarineBikes have the option of adding up to two flamers/plasmarifles/meltaguns to the squadron.
Both have the option of taking Krak-Grenades and Melta-Charges.
SpaceMarineBikes Squadrons can have up to one AttackBike, ScoutBikeSquadrons  have the Scout-ability.
SpaceMarineBikes  have armorsave 3+
ScoutBikes have armorsave 4+
All other stats are identical.

So for Epic i would use the SpaceMarineBikes stats, lower their FF by 1, lower their armor to 5+ (they are inexpierenced in driving, thats why they can't use the terrain and speed as effectively for cover and protection as full SpaceMarines and they have lighter armor) and give them Scout. A ScoutBikeDetachment should be 4 or 5 units.





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 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 2:43 pm 
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Personally I?d go with BlackLegion?s suggestion.  

I do think the Squad should be five units.  A four-man ?infantry? detachment sits at odds with all the other Marine detachments (not a benefit, imo).

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 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 2:48 pm 
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cool- and its similar to what I suggested too!   :D

so:

Space Marine Scout Bikes
INF, 35cm, 5+ SV, 3+ CC, 5+FF
Bolters (Small Arms)
Chainswords (Close Combat)

Notes:  Mounted, Scouts

As for size/price im also drawn to 5 for 175points...  Cheaper than a normal bike and unit foir unit slightly cheaper than a scout which is in keeping with going from tacs to marine bikes.

Edit- oops, changed shotguns to bolters  :) .  Dont know about chainswords since thats the basic cc wpn  ???





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 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:04 pm 
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Scoutbikes have Bolters, no Shotguns :)
They have no Chainswords too. Interesting that SpaceMarineBikes in Epic have Chainswords and a really good CC-value as in WH40k they have no CC-weapons.

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 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:11 pm 
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Ok, I for what it's worth I went and checked the stats published in Fanatic.  Same as J0k3r / BlackLegion's but with 4+CC.  Points cost was a free 'upgrade' to a bike detachment (not much of an upgrade, if you ask me).

Much as I'd like to agree with the already-published stats I think the ones J0k3r put up are better.

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 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:25 pm 
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Guyz, the Emporer knows I Luv'ya !  But sometimes ya all reinvent the wheel ... when it comes to rulez !  Stat'm as SM bikes + Scout & Infil. ... KISS principle !  We still use SM1 Jet Bikes so - We just stat'd them bikes + Skimmer and doubled the speed ...  In both cases a points cost is in order ... But DWWFY; as always !  :D

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 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:59 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 09 2006,14:27)
QUOTE

(nealhunt @ Oct. 09 2006,14:20)
QUOTE
I was thinking Scout bikes had the same T, 4+ armor save, and a bonus to difficult terrain checks (which could translate to Epic as armor saves due to increased use of "local" terrain).

They do have all that, but if normal Marines on Bikes don't have a bonus to their armour save in Epic (Going from 4+ to 3+), then it would be against precendent to give Scout Bikers a bonus (Going from 5+ to 4+).

I don't know that I would say that is a firm precedent.  More units go up in armor when mounted than don't.  I might even say most of them do.  SM Bikes seem more the exception than the rule in that regard.

Not that it bothers me one way or the other.  I was just wondering about people's thought processes.

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 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:35 pm 
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SM Bikes seem more the exception than the rule in that regard.


Maybe that's one of the myraid reasons that Marines are a tichy bit underpowered.:)

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 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:45 pm 
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Yes, but if you see the transition between EldarGuardians (no save) to EldarJetbikes (4+ save) then SpaceMarineBikes should have a 2+ save :D
I think 4+ is the maximum a Bike should get. The powerarmors save is good enough and its weight hinders the manouverability of the bike more than it gives additional protection.

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 Post subject: Scout Bikes?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:06 pm 
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That was most of my thought process, too.  Scout bikes should be a separate formation type, they don't ride in support of the Marine Bikes, they are the 40k equivalent of light cavalry, riding well ahead of the entire army if Marines are operating on-planet for an extended period, or scouting new targets for drop assaults if the Marines are following their SOP of Hit&Run.  (I guess on-planet while their backup is off-planet counts as 'well ahead')

Here's the thing:  A formation of 4, with no real upgrades except a character is fragile.  (Assault Marines without an Air Assault come to mind).  A formation of 5 would be better, but then they're just like Marine Bikes with Scout.  What's the advantage to taking them right now?  Since there isn't really an advantage to taking Scout Bikes, there's no reason to take them (except fluff).  

[actually, I know one reason to have a formation of 5 instead of 4:  Who wants to see two bike units Air Assaulting from a Thunderhawk?]

What would you rather have, 4 Scouts + 2 Rhinos, or 5 Scout bikes with Scout?

   Let's see here, the Rhinos can move 30cm, then the Scouts jump out and shoot something 30cm away, potentially a total of 90cm on a double-and-shoot.  

   The Scout Bikes don't have a ranged attack.  The only thing they can do is assault, so their reach is 35cm from their Garrison right now.  I'm not sure that Scout Bikes should have Scout, necessarily.  I'd rather see Infiltrate instead of Scout.  This defines their role as rapid-response forces (outriders, if you will), lurking off on the Flanks of an army as a counter-assault unit, instead of as Pathfinders with one hell of an assault range (starting from a Garrison).

************************

Marine Scouts are just as good as regular Marines, except they aren't wearing power armor.  They have been this good since 3rd edition.  That's why Epic Scout Bikes should have similar stats to Marine Bikes, except for their Armor.  

I understand your concerns about scout+infiltrate+high speed, but the way I see Scouts used in 40k is mostly as ad-hoc Assault Marines, although Sniper squads do show up as well.  As assault Scouts, they hit normal troops just as hard as Assault Marines, and can potentially assault on Turn 2 in 40k, just like Assault Marines.  They also deploy after your opponent's Fast Attack options, which allows even more flexibility in where and when they're used.  Marine Scouts are so good, they're two points less per model than Marines, even though Marines are much more survivable (Heavy Bolters take a Scout's armor Save away, but it takes Plasma or antitank weapons to take away a Marine's armor save).

*************************

BlackLegion:  I'm pretty sure that the save on Cheddar jetbikes is going down to 5+, but that's still a 2 point jump in armor save, which is nothing to sneer at.

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