Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 2 of 2
  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

[BatRep] Marines vs Tau, with Broadsides!
nealhunt
 Post subject: [BatRep] Marines vs Tau, with Broadsides!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:57 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
How much were Broadsides considered underpowered before?

With those stats, you've not quite cut the firepower in half.  That's probably worht somethign in the -30% range for pricing.  Then you've added +50% to the formation size.  That should net out to the equivalent of a 10-20% increase in the formation's point value.  If you drop the price 25-50 points on top of that, you're looking at something like a 25-30% difference overall.

I'm not making a case one way or the other.  I'm just asking if common perception matches up with that large of a discrepancy.

_________________
Neal
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: [BatRep] Marines vs Tau, with Broadsides!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:24 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455
Doubling the firepower is only a 40% increase in combat power.  Having 3/4ths the AT fire is about a 15% drop in combat power, plus 1.5x the AP fire (~25% increase), and another 1.5x increase in survivability, makes for a net of about +35% more combat power.  The 50-point drop in cost is about  15% (yeah, I know it's more, but I've rounded in other places, too).  That's a 50% increase in combat power overall.  That may be a bit much.  I firmly believe that Broadsides were at least 35% overcosted, though.

_________________
"For the Lion and the Emperor!"
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Honda
 Post subject: [BatRep] Marines vs Tau, with Broadsides!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:52 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

5) "And They Shall Know No Fear"
- Number of BMs in assault resolution is halved (round down)
- Leaders remove 2BMs instead of 1


Chroma, did you see much impact using the "assault resolution halved" rule in this game?

Locally, we have been playing Hena's proposal for only counting +1 if greatly outnumbered (i.e. doubled) as the rule used in your game didn't have an observable effect.

I'd be interested in your observations.

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Chroma
 Post subject: [BatRep] Marines vs Tau, with Broadsides!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:27 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

(Honda @ Sep. 09 2006,12:52)
QUOTE
Chroma, did you see much impact using the "assault resolution halved" rule in this game?

Locally, we have been playing Hena's proposal for only counting +1 if greatly outnumbered (i.e. doubled) as the rule used in your game didn't have an observable effect.

I'd be interested in your observations.

Actually, that "only greatly outnumbered" thing for Marines was my idea and the "BMs halved in resolution" was Hena's.  I've been testing out the "BM's halved" rule and I don't really like it; it has little effect for the Marines if they've got 2 or more BMs.

I much prefer the "only vastly outnumbered" rule.

Against Tau, there weren't a lot of assaults that favoured the Tau anyway, so it didn't really come up.

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
baronpiero
 Post subject: [BatRep] Marines vs Tau, with Broadsides!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:00 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:38 pm
Posts: 186
Maybe I missed something, but it seems you never used Coordinate fire during this game! Not even just as a substitute to retain initiative. How is that?

I notice you used the garrisonned Crisis + scouting elements trick. Where you satisfied with this formation?

Btw, I like the way you based your ruins on square stands. The straigth lines look better than I would have though. I definitely should do that.
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Chroma
 Post subject: [BatRep] Marines vs Tau, with Broadsides!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:23 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

(baronpiero @ Sep. 14 2006,13:00)
QUOTE
Maybe I missed something, but it seems you never used Coordinate fire during this game! Not even just as a substitute to retain initiative. How is that?


Sometimes the opportunity to use co-ordinated fire just doesn't come up, and I don't think Tau always need to use it to be effective. ?Against Marines, with their smaller formations, co-ordinated fire can sometimes be overkill, so I'd rather be able to fire on multiple formations then just overwhelm one.

I notice you used the garrisonned Crisis + scouting elements trick. Where you satisfied with this formation?


Actually, I love this formation! ?*laugh* ?Means my Crisis teams can get stuck in right away and do some damage. ?Putting LVs in there leaves them a bit vulnerable, but I think it's worth if for the ability to pounce on the enemy.

Btw, I like the way you based your ruins on square stands. The straigth lines look better than I would have though. I definitely should do that.

Thanks! ?I'm thinking of putting a standardized "under base" on them all, something in 12cm increments so I can build roads and stuff that will fit nicely between them. ?Currently most of the ruins are on 10cm x 10cm bases for the "square" ruins, and larger increments of 5cm for the larger one. ?I cut all the bases with a hand jigsaw, so they aren't precise, but they look great on the table.




_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
baronpiero
 Post subject: [BatRep] Marines vs Tau, with Broadsides!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:10 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:38 pm
Posts: 186
Sometimes the opportunity to use co-ordinated fire just doesn't come up...

Yes in fact. And it was a 2000 pts game.

Putting LVs in there leaves them a bit vulnerable, but I think it's worth if for the ability to pounce on the enemy.
Actually, the LVs in there are the reason why I didn't try this for the moment. Jetpacks-equipped troops don't marry well with others. Even more now since Crisis aren't LVs any more! In fact I'd be very willing to see a mixed crisis+stealth formation for setting ambushes.

Indeed people find a use for Crisis+drones (especially heavies!), Crisis+crisis, but Crisis+stealth doesn't seem to appeal much.



And good luck for your underbase stuff.
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Chroma
 Post subject: [BatRep] Marines vs Tau, with Broadsides!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:23 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

(baronpiero @ Sep. 14 2006,19:10)
QUOTE
Actually, the LVs in there are the reason why I didn't try this for the moment. Jetpacks-equipped troops don't marry well with others. Even more now since Crisis aren't LVs any more! In fact I'd be very willing to see a mixed crisis+stealth formation for setting ambushes.

Indeed people find a use for Crisis+drones (especially heavies!), Crisis+crisis, but Crisis+stealth doesn't seem to appeal much.

I usually put the Tetras behind any terrain that I'm deloying the Crisis/Stealth teams in so that they're generally out of sight.

Since Tau can garrison a lot of nasty things, the opponent really has to do some figuring as to what to attack first! ?*laugh* ?I haven't found the garrisoned Crisis/Stealth/Tetra Contigent to be that vulnerable at all, especially as the scout ability lets you spread the formation out a bit.

And, if you do happen to get assaulted, the jump back and skimmer means you'll most likely be firefighting instead of close combat.

I really haven't used Drones much at all... maybe it's time to give them a spin!

And good luck for your underbase stuff.

Thanks!  Not sure when I'm going to be starting that project though.  *laugh*

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Honda
 Post subject: [BatRep] Marines vs Tau, with Broadsides!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:24 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

Even more now since Crisis aren't LVs any more! In fact I'd be very willing to see a mixed crisis+stealth formation for setting ambushes.


I've used this formation (Stealth+Crisis) as well and it does perform rather well, though vulnerable to artilllery.


And, if you do happen to get assaulted, the jump back and skimmer means you'll most likely be firefighting instead of close combat


I find it interesting that you say that. Because I fight Eldar and IG a fair bit, their FF values make that proposition a pretty bad exchange for my Stealth, and sometimes the Crisis if there are enough units shooting at them.

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Chroma
 Post subject: [BatRep] Marines vs Tau, with Broadsides!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:19 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

(Honda @ Sep. 15 2006,13:24)
QUOTE
I've used this formation (Stealth+Crisis) as well and it does perform rather well, though vulnerable to artilllery.


How do you find the formation more vulnerable to artillery than any other Tau formation Honda?  

I've found them less succeptible as the scout on the Stealths/Tetras lets me spread the formation out a bit so they all aren't hit by templates: essentially 1 Crisis and 1 Steath/Tetra within 5cm of each other and then each of those "pairs" 10+cm apart, means a max of 2 targets per barrage template.

I find it interesting that you say that. Because I fight Eldar and IG a fair bit, their FF values make that proposition a pretty bad exchange for my Stealth, and sometimes the Crisis if there are enough units shooting at them.

Fighting Eldar do you find the 10cm "jump back" is usually enough to get you out of firefight range?

I've just found people seem to hesitate to engage units with MW and/or first strike firefight abilities.  Maybe it's just an artifact of my local play experiences against Marines and Black Legion.

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Honda
 Post subject: [BatRep] Marines vs Tau, with Broadsides!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:49 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

(Honda @ Sep. 15 2006,13:24)

I've used this formation (Stealth+Crisis) as well and it does perform rather well, though vulnerable to artilllery.


How do you find the formation more vulnerable to artillery than any other Tau formation Honda? ?

I've found them less succeptible as the scout on the Stealths/Tetras lets me spread the formation out a bit so they all aren't hit by templates: essentially 1 Crisis and 1 Steath/Tetra within 5cm of each other and then each of those "pairs" 10+cm apart, means a max of 2 targets per barrage template.



This is probably more a function of what type of armies I play against, but I typically field an all mechanized list (no boots on the ground) and because of their higher mobility, tend to be a little more spread out than typical infantry formations. Also, at least in my book, AP+4 tends to yield more hits than AT +5.


Fighting Eldar do you find the 10cm "jump back" is usually enough to get you out of firefight range?



Umm...no. My typical Eldar opponent either fields a BT list that looks like Saim Hann, or plays Saim Hann. So his much higher mobility means that he rarely has trouble catching foot units...which also means that I don't tend to take a lot of them either.


I've just found people seem to hesitate to engage units with MW and/or first strike firefight abilities. ?Maybe it's just an artifact of my local play experiences against Marines and Black Legion.


Again, neither he nor I have any trouble trading +5 for +4 shots (guardians, Vypers) regardless of type. Also, it's not like the Crisis formation is a huge unit, so in a FF situation, it's quite common to be shooting fewer shots and you don't hit as well...assuming a successful engage had occurred.

In a straight up shoot out, the Crisis are very tasty. All those MW +4's work very well, also making them a high priority target.

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
  Print view Previous topic | Next topic 
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 2 of 2
  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net