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Marine Chapter's Armory

 Post subject: Marine Chapter's Armory
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:02 am 
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I have a real problem with how little artillery support there is in the fluff.  12-16 Whirlwinds is 3-4 WW dets.  Each chapter has 4 battle companies (3 in Unforgiven Chapters), each one of which should be directly supported by a WW det.  Then I have 4 reserve companies (usually in smaller deployments away from the Battle Companies or reinforcing the Battle companies), which also need WW support.  


The reserve companies are never deployed on their own except in dire emergency IIRC. Troops are simply transferred from the reserve units to reinforce the Battle companies as and when they're needed.

I can't think of many occasions where more than 1-2 Companies have been engaged in battle simultaniously either.

Instead, they use Thunderhawks for both missile and bomb close air support...

Where can I find the background on these CAS Thunderhawk varients, I'm unaware of them.

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 Post subject: Marine Chapter's Armory
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:06 am 
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Yes, Lion/Stars, I was a Grunt and proud of it !  And the MTO&Es we use are right out of the SM1 rules in an old W/D ...  Don't know what the Netepic one look like ... :;):  And "V", sent you a pic of my Sabres !  But I'll be keeping my "Dog of War" sign/block !  :D

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 Post subject: Marine Chapter's Armory
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:14 am 
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(centurion @ Sep. 10 2006,07:34)
QUOTE
Hi,
Just a note regaeding marine air assets. In the paperback DoW:Tempest there is mention of marine fighters i.d. as cobras  ??? .

Well, the novel fluff and the mainstream fluff aren't exactly in sync either. Actually even worse than the mainstream fluff is in sync with itself.

But IMO it would be stupid if not downright idiocy if the marines _didn't_ have any sort of space/air superiority fighter. Let's face it: marines are the RDF. They're supposed to be on site when the Imperial Navy is still scratching their b*lls and filling out forms to requisition forms to request permission for leaving the dock.  :laugh:

So they're there first. With no navy in sight. And they're supposed to rely on the equivalent of helicopter gunships to protect their landing craft against enemy fighters? Right...

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 Post subject: Marine Chapter's Armory
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:22 am 
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Yep, the G/W fluff, as I said in many cases does not make sense ... an amphibious, air assault or airborne force would depend heavily on CAS and   "Naval (Spacecraft) Gunfire" Support, too !  Whoa, Saints & Martyrs !!!!!!  It's 03:25 hrs here ... better hit the rack !  E-talk to you gents tomorrow !  :D

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 Post subject: Marine Chapter's Armory
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:27 am 
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(Legion 4 @ Sep. 10 2006,08:32)
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Techmarines are in our MTO&Es, each Co. may have a tech or Chap, or Lib, or Medic attached ! ?I'll send you a pic of my Sabres and you can post them here if you like "V" ! Standby ...

et voila':


Thank you L-4  :D
As I said earlier - nice vehicle.  :D

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 Post subject: Marine Chapter's Armory
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 11:13 am 
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Nice pick V, cheers L4. I think it is a given that the people who write the fulff, a, didn't read the previous version of the fluff, and b, they haven't ever crossed the LD on H hour to get the real life experience required to right in depth stuff. People often use fluff to impose limitations on what can and cannot be done. I say use fluff as a basis for ideas and expand on what has been written to come up with what you want. An example of my use of fluff is the Land Raider Helios, read about it in DOW Ascension and now I have two detachmenst with another two to come. As far as how much armour is in the armoury goes, its how much I'm prepared to spend on SG minis. And so far the armoury is fat. At a glance, my existing stockpile of armour looks like:

Land Raider x 42 ( including 8 x Helios)
Predator Destructor x 6
Predator Annihilator x 6
Vindicator x 18
Whirlwind x 20
Hunter x 14
Razorback x 24
Rhino x 48

That armour is allocated to only 4 companies of marines, 1st, 3rd, 5th and 9th. So it is highy likely that the armouries of the Adeptus Astartes are huge. Man six companies to go, my wallet is going to cop a flogging.

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 Post subject: Marine Chapter's Armory
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:22 pm 
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Thanks Boyz !  Much appreciated on both counts !  The G/W Fluff Crew, as I said do "Orwellian New-Speak" !  Much changes with every new iteration !  So I'll stick with the SM1 MTO&Es and my common sense/experience !  :D

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 Post subject: Marine Chapter's Armory
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:19 pm 
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As has been said, SM1-fluff is compatable with E:A fluff for the most part... it's just that it's set 10,000 years previously!

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 Post subject: Marine Chapter's Armory
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:29 pm 
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My friends and I don't really go with this 1000 marines stuff. Give us the 90K marines in a legion from earlier millenia instead. Otherwise we basically wipe out most of a chapter each game... :O

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 Post subject: Marine Chapter's Armory
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:23 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Sep. 10 2006,08:02)
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Instead, they use Thunderhawks for both missile and bomb close air support...


Where can I find the background on these CAS Thunderhawk varients, I'm unaware of them.

E&C,
The background info, weapon payloads, is in IA2:SM and there are rules for them in IA3:Taros iirc.


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 Post subject: Marine Chapter's Armory
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:04 am 
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I can't find any rules in my copy of IA:3, and I don't have a copy of IA:2 to hand...

you're sure you don't mean ThunderBolts?

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 Post subject: Marine Chapter's Armory
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:23 am 
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The 1000 man concept is another G/W questionable machination ... 1000 men is a big Bn or Small Rgt ... so IMO, an SM force could include a number of these 1000 man Rgts ...  Depending on the mission ...

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 Post subject: Marine Chapter's Armory
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:54 am 
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(Markconz @ Sep. 10 2006,20:29)
QUOTE
My friends and I don't really go with this 1000 marines stuff. Give us the 90K marines in a legion from earlier millenia instead. Otherwise we basically wipe out most of a chapter each game... :O

I'm agreeing with Markconz about something??  :O  Watch out for flying pigs!  :p  :laugh:

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 Post subject: Marine Chapter's Armory
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:21 am 
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E&C:  Nope, I mean Thunderhawks.  There's a listing in IA2 (a little sidebar text box) that has a description of the different weapon loads used for each mission, but the Thunderhawk listing in my copy of IA3 is just the Transporter, and IA4 .  It's on the bottom of page 155.  I'd quote it in it's entirety, but I can't get the multiple columns to format properly.  Instead, I'll post them column by column.

Troop Insertion Mission
1 x dorsal mounted turbo-laser (or battle cannon)
2 x Lascannons on attack wings
4 x Heavy Bolters in twin-linked mounts on forward fuselage
4 x Heavy Bolters in twin-linked mounts under wing tips

Your basic, plain-Jane THawk, almost as it appears in Epic (the only change is the inclusion of the twin lascannon).  The extra 45cm AT4+ would help a bit, but not much.
Close Air Support Mission
(Low-level attacks against identified targets)

1 x dorsal mounted turbo-laser (or battle cannon)
2 x Lascannons on attack wings
4 x Heavy Bolters in twin-linked mounts on forward fuselage
4 x Heavy Bolters in twin-linked mounts under wing tips
6 x Hellstrike, long range air to surface missiles under wings
The THawk listing in the 40k rules is actually this version.  I would assume, based on RL physics, that a Thunderhawk flying CAS is empty of troops, but you need to throw RL out the window when you're talking GW.  I wouldn't mind seeing this version, either, but it really doesn't matter much.  Either version of the Thunderhawk would increase the Marine's AT capabilities (45cm AT4+ from the lascannons and 3x 120cm AT4+ from the Hellstrikes).  It still wouldn't help the Marine's lack of AA capability, though.
Saturation Bombing Mission
(Low-level interdiction attacks)

1 x dorsal mounted turbo-laser (or battle cannon)
2 x Lascannons on attack wings
4 x Heavy Bolters in twin-linked mounts on forward fuselage
4 x Heavy Bolters in twin-linked mounts under wing tips
18 x bombs mounted on triple pylons under wings (some incendiary)
This version is the one I'd really like to see on the Epic battlefield, instead of the Marauder for Marine lists.  For game purposes, I'd say that the bomber versions 'sacrificed' their troop transportation capabilities for bombing capabilities (ie, TH Bombers would have no transport capability, but would have about 6BP One-Shot (following the FW examples in IA3), or 3-4BP following the SG practice (4BP would be better game-wise, IMO, but a Thunderhawk carries 18 bombs instead of a Marauder's 24 max, so really should be 3BP).
Long-Range Bombing Mission
(Demolition against hardened targets)

1 x dorsal mounted turbo-laser (or battle cannon)
2 x Lascannons on attack wings
4 x Heavy Bolters in twin-linked mounts on forward fuselage
2 x external auxiliary fuel pods under wings
4 x large guided bombs under wings (delay fused)
2 x large guided bombs (melta warheads) under wing tips
Epic is a Tactical game at most (most versions of the Battle of Gettysburg are Grand Tactical, where a stand of infantry is company-battalion sized, depending on rules system), and strategic air support is not appropriate for the Tactical battlefield (Just ask any Vietnam gamer about having an Arc Light raid for air support (essentially, remove everything on the board) ).
Starship Intercept
(Zero-gravity bombing mission)

1 x dorsal mounted turbo-laser (or battle cannon)
2 x Lascannons on attack wings
4 x Heavy Bolters in twin-linked mounts on forward fuselage
6 x large guided bombs under wings (plasma warheads)
2 x large guided bombs (melta warheads) under wing tips
Note that the last 2 versions replace the wingtip heavy bolters with the melta warhead bombs, compromising defense for more bombload.

Thunderbolts, OTOH, only carry 4 bombs at the most.

****************
E&C:  The 3rd ed Marine codex has a deployment of Marines from the reserve companies (attached to a Rogue Trader), and IAs 2, 3 and 4 all include Marines from the Reserve companies in operational deployments.  Almost all deployments of Marines include some artillery support.  Even the Black Templars (who don't have access to Whirlwinds in 40k!) have a few Whirlwinds listed in one crusade (it's in Codex:  Black Templars).  If every time you send Marines out, you give them a(n Epic) detachment of Whirlwinds, you need lots of Whirlwinds in the armory!

L4, are those converted Sabres, or are they 'factory'?  Also, you never did answer my question.  Is a Sabre armed with a battlecannon, or is it an autocannon?  I downloaded the netEpic unit description, and it says 'autocannon' for the Saber's weapon.  What on earth are they thinking?!?  An autocannon is next to worthless against tanks.  (I guess this means I really will be building the 'Predator w/ battlecannon' in 40k)

I think I've got a copy of the old SM1 TO&Es someplace, so I guess I'll have to go look through the storage unit.  

Based on the netEpic support cards (3 Sabres, 3 Preds or 3 Vindis), there would be 4 Sabres (note spelling correction) per E:A detachment.

I noticed that you didn't disagree with my characterization of Grunts, L4.  Are you admitting that's an accurate description?

Markconz:  Yeah, I hear you.  My Marine casualties are horrible, even my 'victories' seem rather Pyrrhic.  

Personally, I believe that the 1000 Marines (well, roughly 900 plus however many Scouts you have) refers only to Marine Infantry, and does not include HQ staff or armored vehicle crews.  This makes it easier to justify the numbers to myself.  Besides, I play Dark Angels, who have more toys than most other chapters.  

First and Finest!

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 Post subject: Marine Chapter's Armory
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:29 am 
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Lion thanks for typing all that out, that's some very cool info!

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