Demiurg 2.0 |
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Xisor
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Post subject: Demiurg 2.0  Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:12 pm |
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Woops, found another one too!
[i]From page 17, second paragraph
As fighting vessels even their nominal cruiser, the Bastion Class, is a match for most Imperial battleships.
The Stronghold is a match for most Imperial Battleships, the Bastion is of roughly similar power to Imperial Battlecruisers. For the effect and intent of the paragraph, I suppose you'd be best off just changing Bastion for Stronghold, thus emphasising the power of the Demiurg.
As an aside for discussion on problems of current background versus the stuff in v2.0:
Demiurg systems is notably superior to almost all Imperial equivalents when it comes to spaceships. I mean, the Demiurg *merchant* fleet is fairly potent compared to the premier fighting fleet of the Imperium...something doesn't match there. Perhaps noting that in terms of space-vessel-technology it is arguable that the Demiurg had easily exceeded much of the limitations of STC technology.
Additionally, there's a massive hole in the 'Demiurg have no air support' side of the list... they'vevast supplies of Ordnance and (presumably, asmost reason would indicate they do) landing craft. It seems daft(no offence meant here), to me, that a primarily fleet based institution would not have suitable airpower to escort their armies.
Whilst I understand the list itself is intended to simply accomodate the existing Epic Models, I strongly feel the need to suggest 'pushing the boat out' here and say "Put in some blooming aircraft!".
To keep the theme of the list though, there's some neat tricks you could utilise:
- Automated vessels, thus a limiton abilities or initiative
- Massive Landing Craft and light interceptor/deterrant craft only. No need for the whole spectrum of abilities(such as Thunderhawk/Orca/Vampire Raider style transports), but keep it limited and thematically matching the rest of the list.
A final additional though would be to actually implement some of the 'rigged up mining stuff' too, but that's a furtherstep away from the current feel of the list(a professional fighting body, not an ad-hoc, if powerful, reconfigured/multi-task force).
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"Number 6 calls to you
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Your girlfriend is a toaster"
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epilgrim
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Post subject: Demiurg 2.0 Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:28 pm |
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at present the list seems to perform well in the absence of aircraft.
With the use of tunneling units that makes up for a lot in terms of planetfall or aircraft transport.
as this list list tested further we will see if the lack of airpower is a serious problem. to date that has not been the case.
currently a question has been ask about the Cyclops and the Mole Mortar, not their lack of airpower.
You really ought to play them in Epic. Moscovian and I had a great tight game with tyhe DE list recently, very fun!
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Squat/Demiurg Army Co-Champion (in cahoots with Jaldon)
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Xisor
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Post subject: Demiurg 2.0 Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 8:23 pm |
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 >
It's not that I suspect there's a flaw in the list itself, it's that it makes no(none at all) sense that they have no aircraft. It's got nothing to do with the list.
Call it an academic point 
(Amusingly, that reminds me of a bit in the Rogue Star novel:
"I'm afraid you don't have permission to go down. To get that you must fill out "x" form in triplicate countersigned by the Senior Docking Chief"
"Are you going to stop me?"
"You realise that our forces will be obliged to fire on you to prevent you landing?"
"Your forces? There isn't a defence monitor in the system nor a weapon capable of actually firing!"
"That's an entirely academic point. The fact they are permitted to do so alone should be reason enough for you not to do so...")
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"Number 6 calls to you
The Cylon Detector beckons
Your girlfriend is a toaster"
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: Demiurg 2.0 Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 8:46 pm |
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Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
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Did Squats historically have aircraft?
I don't recall them having anything faster than gyrocopters.
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epilgrim
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Post subject: Demiurg 2.0 Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:03 pm |
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Moscovian
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Post subject: Demiurg 2.0 Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:27 pm |
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Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA
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I actually like the idea of the Demiurg list having some type of landing craft (although maybe not escorts for them).
Perhaps since we are pushing the envelope on the Squat-Demiurg thing, a new unit or two can be added to the list. A massive landing craft that operates as a self sustaining mining platform, heavily armored and armed for both breaching air defenses and staying power on the ground.
As I see it the list is pretty well balanced now, so adding a well balanced unit shouldn't mess anything up.
_________________ author of Syncing Forward and other stories...It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.
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epilgrim
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Post subject: Demiurg 2.0 Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:02 am |
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Vanvlak,
I like the close up, very nice Overlord!
Evil and Chaos,
no, the Demiurg have never developed the nack for air combat, hence no models exist for them.
Moscovian,
you just want me to use that big GZG lander model more often don't you? Well maybe for a scenario, but traditionally I deploy somewhere far away from the board where I can't get my ass handed to me while I'm on board (The Merchant Prince hates resopnding to the insurance claims when the LZ is hot). 
Also, I will not build a 'transformer-type' factory either, that is off board too!
But feel free to make up whatever while we playtest v2!
To all,
Has the IG champ (or whoever) done any work on the Imperial Lander? I'm curious...mildly curious that is... 
Xisor,
Thanks for the funny book reference 
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Squat/Demiurg Army Co-Champion (in cahoots with Jaldon)
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Demiurg 2.0 Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:27 am |
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Location: Ohio - USA
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Like the Overlord and you all know my predilection for Realism ... but we all turn "a Nelson's Eye" to Titans (60+ ft targets) ... So a Blimp with the proper stats works for me ... As far as Dropships ... DWWFY ... Old Crow & GZG have nice 6mm models, I have some !
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epilgrim
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Post subject: Demiurg 2.0 Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:53 am |
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After a series of number crunching and surface areas measurements I came to the following conclusions:
the tarantuala and rapier are equal to each other as originally designed for this list.
the thudd gun as presented in the Baran seiege master list is marginally more effective, but not so as you'd really notice in a 4 turn game.
the mole mortars which were given extended range and ignore cover are now quite better than the other 3.
the formation sizes for all were too large.
here's what I worked out:
LGB Brotherhood: mix of 6 tarantula, rapier and thudd gun for 200 points
LBG Local: choose 3: tarantula, rapier or thudd guns for 100 points
Mole Mortar upgrade: exchange any Brotherhood or Local for an equal number of Mole Mortars for +50 points each.
a full 9 mole mortars would be 250 for the brotherhood and 150 for the Local, a total of 400 points.
as for the Cyclops let's look at 3x 3+ MW, (TK2) for now if the eldar pulse weapons thread sustains the changes to 2x as opposed to the current, I will most likely move this back to 2x 3+ MW, (TK2), but let's see how this works.
I am also moving the cyclops doomstorm missiles to 3BP MW, 4BP MW is too much.
Thank you for every comment posted the shaking out continues!
Hena, you were dead right on the MM problem, thanks for the bat rep.
Ep
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epilgrim
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Post subject: Demiurg 2.0 Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:53 am |
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sorry,
guess I was not clear.
the cyclops should be 3x 3+MW (TK 2) for now.
conceptually the firepower is the same as an eldar titan pulse lance, except that each shot that scores hits harder, in the end the damage is the same.
If the pulse stats are changed as per the Eldar list discussion, to 2x as opposed to a potential 3 shots, I would feel obliged to scale this weapon back too. Hence the 2x 3+MW (TK 2). The 2+MW (TK 2) is too powerful, regardless of the number of shots as you correctly pointed out.
as for support weapons, now they are as follows:
the LGB Brotherhood formations are a mix of 6 tarantula, rapier and thudd gun units for 200 points (instead of 9 units for 300)
the LGB locals are 3 of the same unit for 100 points
Mole mortar LGB Brotherhood formations cost 250 for six units.
Mole Mortar LGB Locals are 3 units for 150 points
You cannot have more than 9 LGB units in the same formation and the points for the Mole Mortars are inline for thier abilities and range.
The ignore cover ability was taken into account when re-costing them. I think it fits their sub-surface profile nicely and it only works with sustained fire.
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Squat/Demiurg Army Co-Champion (in cahoots with Jaldon)
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epilgrim
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Post subject: Demiurg 2.0 Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:08 pm |
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Hena,
had you got a chance to look at my comments about the flame template rules?
Here's another look if you missed it.
Template Placement
(1): Position the template so that it is touching the end of the weapon and the entire template is within the firing arc of the weapon. If using more than one template they must be placed at the same time and may overlap each other.
(2): The template(s) must be placed to cover as many enemy units from the target formation as possible.
(3): Determine how many units are affected by the template. A unit (friend or foe) is affected by the template(s) if any part of the model, or at least one enemy model on a stand, falls under the template(s).
(4): Roll one (1) to hit die (attack?) for each affected infantry and vehicle unit scoring hits and carrying out saves as would normally be done for shooting.
(5): War Engines (WE): If a WE lies directly under the centre-line of at least one flame template, then it is subjected to a number of attacks equal to half its starting damage capacity, rounding fractions up. However, due to the war engine?s huge size, a flame template weapon that can meet the criteria is blocked by the WE and any units behind the WE cannot be affected by that flame template. Other flame templates used in the same attack are not blocked by the WE, but cannot score additional hits on the WE. If a war engine is affected but not under the centre-line of any template it can only be attacked once.
Target Selection Note: If a flame template weapon is capable both anti-aircraft fire (AA) and ground fire (AP/AT), it may be fired at both aircraft and ground formation within the normal rules, but cannot affect both types of formations during the same shooting opportunity.
In other words if you shoot at an aircraft formation during the approach or disengage move the flame template does not affect ground formations, and during an activation a formation with a flame template weapon cannot affect aircraft formations.
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Squat/Demiurg Army Co-Champion (in cahoots with Jaldon)
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epilgrim
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Post subject: Demiurg 2.0 Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:56 pm |
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thanks for the reply, I sent it to Neal just now for his comments or use as well.
Did I clear up the Lineholder Formations and the Cyclops changes properly?
I will take another look at them on the battlefield soon, unfortunately number crunching has the limitation of not being clever or insane like another player can be! 
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