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Norn Queen Report #3
Ilushia
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:06 pm 
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Not quite unmatched... I think An'ggrath the Unbound is actually the best CC monstrosity in 40K right now if you include Forgeworld stuff... Twice as many attacks as a Hierophant has, better WS, more wounds, better invulnerable save, about as fast, as tough, etc.

I'm with Hena... Also remember that in Epic it gets 6 CC 3+ attacks, meaning a chance to kill 30 infantrymen in a single combat. That's a fairly good indicator of it's abilities base-line. Giving it 1-2 TK attacks doesn't bother me much, but from a balance perspective it may have to be looked at point-wise.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:12 pm 
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True but An'ggrath is the greatest of the Greater Daemons, and costs 888 points... also he's ugly. :D

In 40k, given the right circumstances (CC), a Hierophant can kill 30 guardsmen in a single round, let alone a single game, due to it's automatic 4+ to wound every model in B2B in addition to its basic attacks. I'd say that 6 basic attacks represents this ability quite handily, with the 2 MWTK(1) attacks representing its more deliberate, active attacks.

My intention has always to balance the Bio-Titans to the background & rules for the Tyranids in the 40k universe. If the points need to be nudged to achieve that, then so be it.

I suspect that it's balanced at 250 however, I'll be trying a game with some of these new stats tomorrow, now that they're getting a little more stable.




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ragnarok
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 6:09 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Aug. 02 2006,17:06)
QUOTE
Not quite unmatched... I think An'ggrath the Unbound is actually the best CC monstrosity in 40K right now if you include Forgeworld stuff... Twice as many attacks as a Hierophant has, better WS, more wounds, better invulnerable save, about as fast, as tough, etc.

If we don't include FW stuff we wouldn't include the Hierophant.  :laugh:

(Sorry I couldn't help myself)

Though I do agree that An'ggrath is ugly compared to our nids.

*Dragged on topic*

I think that the Hydraphant should get the extra attacks but not the  Hierophant.  They were both originally +4 TK(1) attacks, but ended up too anti infantry rather than anti titan/AV.

The bio titans were evolved as a direct result of food stuff titan usage.  The nids needed something just as big to fit in.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 6:27 pm 
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A CC config Reaver or Warlord will eat a Hierophant, and possibly a Hydraphant too, for breakfast.

With 2 3+TK(d3) attacks


You mean (1), not (d3).

Does your post still stand?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:35 pm 
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Nope, meant the two claws from the weapons list.


Ah fair do's. As I mentioned before, you take CC weapons, you lose the ranged ability, you end up a screamer-killer, with all the positives and negatives that implies.

My goal is to make close combat effective and relatively cheap titans. If they resemble something in 40k, thats a bonus. However I don't want to be restricted by 40k with regards to WEs. As they don't belong to 40k (no matter what FW says). 40k doesn't have any good way to represent TK attacks and thus I doesn't matter what they say. So I'll accept that we have different agendas, so to speak :D.

Actually Titan Killing weapons do exist in 40k, and they work well.

And note, I said the 40k universe, that means the background to the entire drama, it's just that the 40k rules are often a good source of info, but not exclusively so.

For example, there are mentions of Hierophants with giant claws having been spotted in the ForgeWorld background, so I'm quite happy to include them, as well as veiled references to other armaments, so the old E40k Ripper Tentacles & Template acid sprays aren't too much a stretch either.

Breath weapons however, are completely against the background of the Hierophant in its current incarnation, so I'm dead set against such a thing.

The Hydraphant we're inventing ourselves, so I think it's fine to give it a breath weapon.

Same with the Vituraptor, I'm happy to leave a modified 'spore cannon' on it, both because it differentiates it from the Harridan and because we're not contradicting the cannon Harridan, which has no such thing.

Remember, we're writing rules for a model which already exists in 40k, and will be released in Epic scale. I even posted a picture of the wee beastie in the green back before the great crash.

Without CC weapons, reaver and warlord has no nope against either hiero or hydraphant. They don't have MW or TK attacks. So 6 or 8 normal hits cannot compare to 1d3 (possibly 2d3) TK damage.

I did say a CC config Titan, a basic Reaver would get certainly chopped up! One with a Wrecking ball, a Power fist and a Melta Cannon would slice through a Hierophant however. This is as it should be.

Unless you specifically tool up to match or beat them, a CC config Bio-Titan should wipe the floor with most other similar units in CC.

A standard configuration Reaver would in all likelyhood kill the Hierophant before it ever reached an Engagement, incidentally.

But I realise that your list has infact dropped one weapon of the titans. They have currently 2 claws and breath weapon. So there is a leeway. So we might think that those 2 TK(1) could be possible. I can't say for certain.

I've simply given the Hierophant at least the ability to be configured as the model will be, with a little nudging to balance it too.

However I would like to hear what Jaldon has in mind and how much of this thread is usable.

Of course. I'm merely trying to build a consensus, while adding my own voice too. I've changed the list quite a few times now based purely on the debates raised here.

All I'm trying to do is find if we can get a match between the cannon representations of the Bio-Titans in the current background, the models that will be released, and how the community here feels they'd like their game to work.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:00 pm 
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Breath weapon, Acid spray, Bio-plasmic spray... different name same effect :)


I'm a background-consistancy nut, names are very important because we're playing in Mr GW's sandbox.  :)


Harridan used to have spore bombs, which it dropped on the movement. I don't know if that has survived the FW "design". Also with MW CC and no breath weapon, I'm not sure the harridan is of interest to me anymore. Perhaps.

Gone, both from the current rules and the current background.

Personally I've been using Harridans in almost exactly the suggested config (with DC-3) for some time and I've found them quite balanced. They still die easily, but they're also quite effective as long as you bring a whole bunch of Gargoyles with in a flying circus.

You just can't nuke the enemy to death at range with them anymore. :)




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Ilushia
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:24 pm 
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I'm really not seeing how you figure a standard Reaver will shoot a Heirophant to death before it reaches melee... Unless the Reaver basically does nothing but run away from the Heirophant and shoot at it all game, which is a fine result for me. Since my 250 point bio-titan is tieing up a 650 point Reaver for the first 3 turns on average. The only reason it can do it is because it can Double away from me and I can't reach it in a single charge as a result since the Heirophant doesn't have Infiltrate or the like (Perhaps it should? Other things which move like it does do. Even Hormigaunts do!)
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:01 pm 
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Eh it should die in two rounds I reckon. 16 TLD's hitting on 3's/2's, and 6 barrage attacks hitting on 6's/5's. Even without criticals it's going to have a tough time surviving that.

No void shields, criticals do double-wounds or kill outright, probably only one attempt to regenerate. My bet's on the Reaver, at least that's how my gut tells me it's go.

Even with an Advance move away, the Reaver can probably stay out of CC range, if not Engage range, and in a FF it'll most likely win due to superior protection & better FF stat.

I'd work out the averages but it's midnight. :D


Oh and a Hierophant should not Infiltrate. A 60cm charge Bio-Titan of doom is not a pleasant thought.


I've never tried triple-moving my Hierophant on turn 1 to get in amongst the enemy for a turn 2 charge, but I suspect it wouldn't be alive to see turn 2. :)


Anyways, if the Hierodule is undercosted now, then it's always been undercosted since its inception. I suspect that it's balanced, taking into account army synergy & difficulty in bringing its strongest capabilities to bear.




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Ilushia
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:15 pm 
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Well... 16 shots at 3+ would average 2.5 DC done when you factor in the 4+ RA. And the 6 5+ BP shots are average about .5 DC. So between both weapons you're looking at doing half the thing's DC in 2 turns. Assuming no crits. WIth about an 8% chance of instant-deathing it and a 50% chance to have done 4 DC to it.

Yes, you can sic a huge amount of stuff on it to kill it... But at that point you've got lots of stuff pointed at a comparatively very small item on my side.

Also: The Heirophant is only Move 25. Not Move 30. So it'd be a 50cm charge, perhaps a bit too far to be fair... So it might work better at 20cm with Infiltrator. But as it stands literally everything can run from it if they want to. The only thing which even needs to March to get away are Ordinatus. And with a unit which is virtually worthless outside of the assault you'll be hard pressed to find someone who will actually stand still for you to do that! I'd be much more tempted to go with 1 claw and 1 bio-cannon or template. Since at that point I can advance and fire, and use my CC claw if I get into good position for it.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:27 pm 
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Aye as I was saying, you go all CC and you're going to have fun and games trying to catch anyone since you can't lay down BM's to hinder them activating etc, and most armies are going to win their strategy roll against 'nids, so they'll be off first.

It may be worth noting that the Hierodule in 40k does indeed have the equivilent rule to doubling its charge range, from 6" to 12", so there may indeed be a case for slower, infiltrate Hierodules.

This would also provide another distinct seperator from the Hydraphant, pushing the Hydra again towards a slightly more ranged-combat role. Diversification and deliniation being a good thing, I think this could be a good idea.

The only problem is, with a Hierophant that has a 40cm charge range, I think we will indeed be looking at a Bio-Titan that is too cheap. It'll need a (possibly significant) nudge upwards (Again, something I'm not adverse to, since the Hierodule is now edging slightly more towards filling the light-titan role).


EDIT:

Alternatively, DC could be reduced.

I'm going to start examining DC too now.




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Ilushia
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:49 pm 
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I'm fairly sure you mean the Heidrophant in terms of move in 40K? They move the same speed as Hormigaunts do. Of course, the move speeds in 40K these days are bizarre and kinda silly. So it's really up to us to decide if it works well and which way (Well, up to you guys, since my sense of balance seems to be inherently flawed. I generally don't have a problem with Awesome Badass Things so long as they cost the right amount!)
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:49 pm 
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Mini-Update:

Note: All units in this list will have the usual attributes such as RA and Fearless, I'm just keeping things coherent here by keeping text to the minimum.



- Scythed Hierodule (100pts):
- Speed 15cm / Armour 4+ / DC 3 / CC3+ / FF5+
- Acid Spray /15cm / AP2+/AT6+ / Ignore Cover
- Huge Scything Talons: +2 MW TK(1) CC attacks.


- Barbed Hierodule (100pts):
- Speed 15cm / Armour 4+ / DC 3 / CC5+ / FF4+
- Twin-Linked Bio Cannon 2x / 45cm / AP3+/AT4+ / Ignore Cover


- Trygon (100pts):
- Speed 20cm / DC 3 / Armour 4+  / CC 3+ / FF 6+
- Large Scything Talons: +2 MW CC attacks.
- Bio-Electric field / D3 shots /20cm / AP3+/AT6+ / Ignore Cover
- Invulnerable Save, Teleport.


- Harridan (225pts):
- Speed 35cm / DC 3 / Armour 4+ / CC4+ / FF5+
- Twin-Linked Bio Cannon 2x / 45cm / AP3+/AT4+ / Ignore Cover
- Large Scything Talons: +2 MW CC attacks.


- Vituraptor (325pts):
- Speed 30cm / DC 4 / Armour 4+ / CC 4+ / FF 4+
- 2x Bio Cannons 2x / 45cm / AP4+/AT5+ / Ignore Cover
- Spore Cannon /Template / AP5+/AA5+ /Ignore Cover
- 2x Monstrous Claws - +1EA TK (d3)


- Hierophant (250pts):
- Speed 25cm / DC 6 / Armour 4+ / CC 3+ / FF 5+
- Huge Scything Talons: +2 MW TK(1) CC attacks.
Additionally, the Hierophant must select two weapons biomorphs from the Bio-Titans biomorphs list.


- Hydraphant (350pts):
- Speed 25cm / DC 8 / Armour 4+ / CC 3+ / FF 5+
- Huge Scything Talons: +2 MW TK(1) CC attacks.
- Warp Blast /30cm /AP4+ AT4+ AA5+
- Bio-Plasmic Breath /Template /MW 5+ /Ignore Cover
Additionally, the Hierophant must select two weapons biomorphs from the Bio-Titans biomorphs list.



Bio-Titan weapons biomorphs:

- Bio Cannon 2x / 45cm / AP4+/AT5+ / Ignore Cover
- Ripper Tentacles - +d3EA
- Monstrous Claws - +1EA TK (d3)
- Pyro-Acidic Spray - Template, AP5+/AT6+ Ignores Cover




- Barbed Hierodule stats added
- Trygon speed increased from 15cm to 20cm, FF reduced from 5+ to 6+
- Harridan DC increased from 2 to 3.


Things to examine:

- Points costs of everything!

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