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Norn Queen Report #3
Ilushia
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:09 pm 
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I'm OK with Bio-Acid also having AT 6+. It's short range so it shouldn't be an issue for it to do so. A minor chance to melt something at range is cool with me. I just want to move away from this 'Everything larger then standard infantry is carrying macroweapons!' feel of the army... Tyranids are a reasonably well-rounded force in 40K right now, but really don't have that many extremely potent items.
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Chroma
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:11 pm 
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(Hena @ Jul. 29 2006,16:29)
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This sounds fair. Except I want my breath weapon to be available to titans :D.

I feel the bio-titans (Hierophant and Hydraphant, specifically) should have "variable" weapon outfits, say from a list of four. ?

The Hierophant could choose 2 while the Hydraphant could choose 3.

EG.
1. ?Ripper Tentacles - +d6EA
2. ?Pyro-Acidic Spray - Template, MW5+
3. ?Monstrous Claw - +1EATK(d3)
4. ?Bio-Cannon - something to be determined.
(These are, of course, just suggestions and not finallized stats, just examples.)

So, you could make a shooty bio-titan, a close-combat monster, or something in between.

As well, they might have "standard" secondary weapons such as spore cysts or warp blasts, etc. ?This allows the older weapons to be used as well as accomidates the FW stats.

Thoughts?




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Ilushia
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:37 pm 
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I think it's kinda neat. I like the idea of making the spray a possible alternate weapon. I still think we'll run into the 'too many MW weapons' problem. Of course since we're making this list 'fresh' we could do variable costs for different weapon-fits... Personally I think that MW Templates should be relatively restricted (Being able to mount 2 flame-templates with MW 5+ on something which moves 25cm a turn is quite potent! I've got templates on my Warhounds which are AP 4+/AT6+ which I've seen roll as many as 8 dice with a single firing before!)

I'll agree that titan-mounted acid should be MW. That's reasonable. Flamer template works for me as well. Just so long as the weapons are reasonably powerful for the cost of the titan I don't have a problem with it (My problem with the Heirophant was that it's 250 for a flamer-template MW at 5+. Which is quite quite powerful IMHO).

For the Bio Cannon: I still recommend making these be 2x AP3+/AT4+. Twin Bio-Cannons like the Hierodule could be 2x AP2+/AT3+. Hierophants mount 2 of them so would get 4x AP3+/AT4+. Roughly comperable with a Warhound's VMB, only slightly better against Tanks. Combind with the unit's good armor saves and very nice melee capacity I don't think that'd be an issue (Myself, I'd take 1 Bio-Cannon and 1 Claw, but that's just me!)
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Ilushia
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:23 pm 
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I'd be more likely to make the Biocannons be ignore-cover then lance. They use big templates, but they're no better at killing Terminators then a battlecannon is (Infact, they're worse then a demolisher is, and worse then a fire-prism is in terms of penetrating armor!) so it seems kinda weird to give them Lance. They're very high-power and large-AoE, hence the good AP value, but they're not that great at punching through armor as tough as terminators or land raiders. Or even Leman Russ.
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ragnarok
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 8:27 pm 
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I agree that ignore cover fits them best. ?Though I don't find that nid weapons have a problem getting though armour. ?We have so many shots that something has to kill them.  I devilrant (hive tyrant with 2* T/L devourers and +1BS) can put down 3 marines a turn on average.  I have also used such equiped tyrants and fexs to hose down light vehicles.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:29 pm 
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As a reference, here are the current 40k Bio-Titans' basic armaments:

Note: All Bio-Titan CC attacks ignore armour saves.


- Scythed Hierodule:
    - 4CC attacks, S10.
    - Template acid spray, S5 AP3.


- Barbed Hierodule:
   - 2CC attacks, S8.
   - 1 twin-linked Bio Cannon (S10 AP3)

- Hierophant:
   - 5CC attacks, S10
   - 2x Bio Cannons (S10 AP3)
   - Spore Cloud (Anyone in base contact takes a hit, which always wounds on a 4+)
   - Lash Whips (Reduces enemy models attacks by 1 when in base contact)
   - Note, also has a 5+ invulnerable save.

- Trygon:
   - 5CC attacks, S8
   - Scythe-tail (When in base contact with more than 4 models, the Trygon recieves D3 extra attacks at S4)
   - Bio-electric field (Either a 6+ invulnerable save, or D6 S4 AP5 range 12" attacks)

- Harridan:
   - 2CC attacks, S8
   - 1 twin-linked Bio Cannon (S10 AP3)




With that in mind, I'd propose representing these weapons in Epic: Armageddon with:

- Scythed Hierodule:
   - Acid Spray /15cm / AP2+/AT6+ / Ignore Cover
   - Large Scything Talons: +4 MW CC attacks.

- Barbed Hierodule:
   - Twin-Linked Bio Cannon / 45cm / MW4+ / Ignore Cover
   - Scything Talons: +2 MW CC attacks.

- Hierophant:
   - Large Scything Talons: +4 MW CC attacks.
   - 2x Bio Cannons / 45cm / MW5+ / Ignore Cover
   - Lash Whips (The first CC Macro-Weapon hit against the Hierophant in a combat is discarded.)
   - Invulnerable Save


- Trygon:
   - Large Scything Talons: +4 MW CC attacks.
   - Bio-Electric field / D3 shots /20cm / AP3+/AT6+ / Ignore Cover
   - Invulnerable Save, Teleport.

- Harridan:
   - Twin-Linked Bio Cannon / 45cm / MW4+ / Ignore Cover
   - Scything Talons: +2 MW CC attacks.



Justification:

Scythed Hierodule:
   - Template MW Acid Sprays were against the background. The Sythed 'dule is a CC monster with an auxillary anti-personell ranged weapon, not the scourge of armies.

Barbed Hierodule:
   - Pretty much had to invent this one, but it looks ok to me.

Hierophant:
   - I'm not sure about how best to represent the Lash-whips, other than that I think the Hierodule is pretty good. Template weapopn removed because it's not in coherence with the cannon.

Trygon:
   - Downgraded the bio-electric attack, contrary to my earlier failing memory, S5 AP5 doesn't come close to being a MW attack.

Harridan:
   - Pretty much left it alone, except for changing the Bio-Cannons from two shots to a single twin-linked (more likely to hit) shot. Oh and removed the non-cannon Template. :)




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Chroma
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:35 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jul. 29 2006,22:29)
QUOTE
- Trygon:
? ?- Large Scything Talons: +4 MW CC attacks.
? ?- Bio-Electric field / D3 shots /20cm / AP3+/AT6+ / Ignore Cover
? ?- Invulnerable Save, Teleport.

Again I say, infiltrator better represents the burrowing ability of a Trygon than teleport, since it can then ignore zones of control and come up to attack any model in reach.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:51 pm 
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(Chroma @ Jul. 29 2006,22:35)
QUOTE

(Evil and Chaos @ Jul. 29 2006,22:29)
QUOTE
- Trygon:
   - Large Scything Talons: +4 MW CC attacks.
   - Bio-Electric field / D3 shots /20cm / AP3+/AT6+ / Ignore Cover
   - Invulnerable Save, Teleport.

Again I say, infiltrator better represents the burrowing ability of a Trygon than teleport, since it can then ignore zones of control and come up to attack any model in reach.

I'd be tempted to agree, except that without Teleport, Trygons are basically just slightly different Scythed Hierodules.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:55 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jul. 29 2006,22:51)
QUOTE
I'd be tempted to agree, except that without Teleport, Trygons are basically just slightly different Scythed Hierodules.

Well, they'd still be Brood creatures, and that's quite different than being an Independent!

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:57 pm 
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I STILL don't think a Bio-Cannon deserves to be MW. It's not as good as a Demolisher. And it just doesn't feel right to be MW to me. The melee-talons certainly do, they're huge and awesome and give massive damage. But the ranged weapons just don't seem like they should be MW to me. Considering the power of other weapons in Epic. They don't fire that fast and they don't do THAT much damage, I think.
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