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E:A  Rise of the Dracon
consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:37 pm 
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Where we stand as I see it:

Slann Mage-Priest1: ?Independant supreme commander w/ skimmer
Slann Mage-Priest2: ?Character upgrade supreme commander, no skimmer
Slann Priest: Character upgrade commander
Oldblood/Scar Veteran: ?Existing stats include leader,  need correction
Skink Chief: ?character upgrade, No stats
Skink Commander: ?character upgrade, No stats
Skinks: FF troops, remove scout from current stats
Chameleons: ?Scouts
Primitives/Pigmeys: ?Light troops, no stats
Sotek Saurus: CC troops
Tepok Saurus: ?jump pack troops
Chotec Saurus: ?heavy weapon troops
Temple Guards: upgrade for Commanders and Great Temple
Krox (or Kroxigor): ?Light CC walker
Cold One Riders:  Beast mounted cavalry
Stegadon/Salamander: ?walker, AV, SPG
Carnosaur: ?walker, AV, MBT
Slann AA Skimmer: AV, no stats
Slann Missile Skimmer: ?AV, no stats
Slann Field Teleporter: ?AV, no stats
Terradon Transport: AV, carries drop troops
Terradon Attack Craft: ?Fighter/Bomber
OO Heavy AA Tank: ?WE
OO Heavy Missile Tank: ?WE
OO Heavy Field Teleporter: WE
OO Heavy Battle Tank: ?WE
Drop Ship: ?name says it all
Great Temple: Titan scale WE

Did I miss anything? ?

If you don't feel like sifting for the stats, I'll pull them together and post them later.

If no one has a complaint with this list, we need to move on to reviewing the stats of each specific unit.

Looks like a good start to me.

Edit:
I left out Cold One Riders




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Ilushia
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:44 pm 
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I'm going to vote no. I don't see a reason to separate War Engines and normal Skimmers in the list (I should point out the 25mm width on the Warhound is with weapons, without them it MIGHT be 15mm across, probably closer to 10mm).


The list of units looks good I'll see about filling the holes you've got listed there... Shouldn't be terribly hard.
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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:20 pm 
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Ilushia,
Despite any points of contention, I fully respect your stance and your contribution to this project.  You and Vermis have far outstripped anything I could have done.  

Even though this is no longer truly "my baby" as Vermis put it, it is still something I am thoroughly enjoying.  It's become important to me and I appreciate your contribution and everyone elses.

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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:56 pm 
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I don't see a reason to separate War Engines and normal Skimmers in the list


OK, then we need to find a way to solve a problem.

If we left things as they are, our SHTs represent our only AA, our only teleporter, and our heavy battle tank/TK.  We've established this army should be good in all areas, great in none.  

You can't afford to spend all your points on SHTs and it would be against fluff.

Normally you would field up to 3 of these.  That means we either have only one of each or sacrifice one or both of the other 2.  If we field one of each, what happens if we loose the AA or the teleporter in combat?  

These holes in the list need to be filled in some way.  This is supposed to be a well rounded army.

If you have an alternate solution, I am always ready to hear it.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:49 pm 
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Don't forget they also have (Very nice) AA on their aircraft. Especially in units of 2-3 models to an air-wing. Those combo fighter/bombers are quite nasty with 2 AA 5+ shots each. A formation of 3 is looking at an average 2 hits against most aircraft. Usually sinking at least one enemy (Very few non-WE aircraft can consistently accept that kind of punishment). It DOES mean the list has an interesting propensity for Aircraft-mounted AA weapons. Which I like, currently all the races with good aircraft ALSO have very good ground-based flak. I'd like to see a race which has a requirement of AA on it's aircraft (This is ALSO part of why I wanted the fighter/bomber to be a useful bomber. I think that AA-specific aircraft are just silly, you spend 300 points for a formation which can't DO anything if the enemy doesn't bring aircraft to the table? Who in their right mind is going to spend points on that??) I was thinking only the Alkeresh and the Temple would come out of your WE/Aircraft allowance and the others would be like Engines of Vaul, a secondary formation of their own. Expensive in their own right, but not too expensive.

We could do some non-WE filling bits for those spaces too, but I'd rather not have them be skimmers if we do. I could see mech-based AA weapons easily, teleporter is a little more complex. As is the people-mover (Though we could find something really big like the Mordent to throw in as a transport).
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Vermis
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:20 pm 
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(consectari @ Jul. 21 2006,16:17)
QUOTE
As I stated above, this should be a moot point. ?Design 4 WE for the list and 4 AV skimmers for the list. ?You use what proxies you prefer, others can use what proxies they prefer. ?It is as simple as that. ?I see no reason this should continue to be an issue.

I vote yea.  It might be the only way we can easily agree.

To recap: I agree about WE status for the smaller skimmers, but mostly as a limiting factor.  If they're fielded in as similar way to IG and eldar SHTs, I don't really see a point to them being WEs.
I think skimmers should definitely be limited, but not to the point of uselessness:

That means we either have only one of each or sacrifice one or both of the other 2.


The simplest way I can see is to create some kind of auxiliary section in the army selection table.  Only one formation of skimmers per main formation?  Or would that still be too many?

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Vermis
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:51 pm 
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More on the pyramid. ?I'm much happier with this one.

It's based on the Temple of Tlazcotl, from the plan view of The Temple-City of Tlaxtlan, in the 6th ed. lizardmen book. ?Which means that - as is difficult to see in a profile - the lower stepped tier is circular. ?Certainly not compulsory for anyone trying to build their own; but when I get round to it I'll have fun using one of my new toys (bar-compass circle cutter).
But before that I'll get round to a three-dimensional view, ruled out all neat and professional like a grown-up.
The four snake heads are appropriate, as the FB temple has four smaller pyramids in those positions - shrines of Sotek. :;):
The Chotec-eye gun thingy - I think a 40K bolter sight might be too small to represent that (unless 'most of its workings are inside the pyramid' is a good enough excuse), but I think there's an Inquisitor-scale version (EDIT: or not). ?Still might have to use that excuse with it, though.

Question: I'm not sure about the large square platform that seperates the upper and lower pyramids. ?Should this be made thinner? ?Or - off the cuff - thicker?
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Ilushia
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:39 pm 
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I dig that picture, it is awesome!

Mostly I just don't want them coming out of your War Engine alotment except for the largest of them. Making them very limited is fine, say 1 per 2 core formations for a single flight of them. A flight being 1-3 models of any kind from the list. With the 'Light' tank taking up position as a standard support formation (being a normal AV  instead of a WE). I want to avoid having TOO many of these things floating around in the War Engines alotment, since only 1/3 of your points could be spent there and at 3000 points that's likely to only account for 3 of these vehicles, since they'll be quite expensive!
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Vermis
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:36 am 
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Sounds good to me!
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Legion 4
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:04 pm 
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You boyz are doing a lot of good work on this !  :D

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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:47 pm 
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More on the pyramid. ?I'm much happier with this one


This one is even better than previous versions! ?Best improvement overall is that the bottom section is not as long (I mean how far down it extends from the base of the upper pyramid)

I'm not sure about the large square platform that seperates the upper and lower pyramids. ?Should this be made thinner? ?Or - off the cuff - thicker?
Perhaps thinner would be better. ?Just as a suggestion, what if the underneath section were round? ?This would give it a cool, retro, flying saucer look. ?

Back on these "engines of the gods", again. :( ?:( ?:(

Expensive or not, rare or not the WE do not cover all the needs of this army. ?

The Aurika (the light tank that WILL be AV) is built on the same chasis as the Gara teleporter. ?They are the same size! ?On the table, it's going to be difficult enough to tell them apart, let alone the fact that one would be a WE and one an AV. ?Shouldn't Gara be AV and if we need a WE teleporter, find a different proxy?

I don't have the Arkalest yet, but it is entirely possible the Gerresh AA turret could be transfered to it. ?That way, those of us who want to use a WE sized vehicle to represent it, can. ?I know someone I can ask, I'll update later.

We can't continue to drag this point forever. ?It has to be resolved so we can move on to other things.

Though we could find something really big like the Mordent to throw in as a transport
We shouldn't need a another WE sized transport. ?The Great Temple is our WE sized transport.

Ilushia: ?We could do some non-WE filling bits for those spaces too, but I'd rather not have them be skimmers
Vermis: ?I think skimmers should definitely be limited
This is a fine idea. ?I agree, but where are we going to find walker proxies to fill the roles we need filled?

Ilushia, you have the Vorace. ?Does it look like it could easily accept Epic AV turrets to give us different versions of that walker?




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Ilushia
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:53 pm 
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I do own Vorace... I don't own any Epic tanks with turrets though. This thing is fairly large. I don't think it'd look right with other weapons on it.

I'd be OK with making the Gara a non-WE. Just a purpose-built transportation machine would be fine. Fielded in squads of 4-5 and using up the entire squad's teleporters for moving a formation around maybe? We can find something else to do for larger teleporters if that's the case. Any suggestions for what kind of secondary armament to give it? Also: Should the Aurika and Gara have Reinforced Armor or not? Right now the Aurika doesn't (it is essentially just a scout-tank after all) but should it?
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Legion 4
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:05 pm 
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Just sent you a reply, on the AFVs, Con !  And Thanks again for the cool stuff !  :D   Off to work !  :D

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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:45 pm 
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I just got the above mentioned message from Legion 4. ?I had asked him if he thought the turrets from the smaller vehicles would work on the Arkalest and the Vorace.

I just looked over all the vehicles you asked about ... The turrets look good to me on the Arkalest but a little ungainly on the Vorace. ?And may need a little work to make them "work" on the Vorace, IMO


This solves one problem. ?Those that want to field larger vehicles for their WE can just put the missile turret or the AA turret from the small vehicle onto the SHT sized Arkalest chasis. ?

I have the Gara and the the Gerresh. ?The turrets are interchangable, so if a WE sized teleporter is needed, the "teleport turret" from the Gara should also work on the WE sized Arkalest chasis.

This still leaves us with the problem of not enough AV sized walkers. ?I posted a request for idea on the board a couple days ago w/ no luck so far. ?The only thing I have found came from L4 again. ?Look at the 7th image down. ?It doesn't fit great, but I can't find anything else.
2mm walker ?

I'm doing the best I can here to solve these problems.

Dont' want skimmers or tracked vehicles, or wheeled vehicles, can't find walkers, I don't know what to do.  My suggestions so far are not going over well.

Any one else have an idea?  We have got to get this resolved an MOVE ON.




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Ilushia
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:31 pm 
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I think we've got a fair mix of walkers. We really need some alternate weapon loadouts. Vorace carrying various different weapon fits would work fine I think. Replace the Ion Cannon with something else (I'm thinking of maybe adding Lance to the Ion Cannons, since it fits with the mechanics of an ion-cannon. Would anyone be opposed to this? I think it'd be neat.)
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