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E:A  Rise of the Dracon
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 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:53 pm 
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I'll work on an actual list with unit sizes and suchlike sometime soon if you people want. I don't think there's anything all that over-powered in the list right now


No, nothing overpowered as long as we control the number of units available.

I don't think we're very far from being able to go ahead with a sample list.  I do think we should discuss unit sizes before you start work on it though.

Skinks should maybe be in units of 8-9, Saurus in units of 6-7.  Just a suggestion, feel free to shoot it down.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:54 pm 
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The names are all open to changes (I really don't care much about names and I'm HORRIBLE at naming things!)

The Vertex just doesn't look that huge to me. it's only MAYBE the size of 4 infantry bases, if that. Compared with something like a Space Marine  Thunderhawk it just doesn't seem big enough to be a multi-DC war engine. The other reason is that I was picturing flights of these (3 per flight carrying 6 stands) transporting the drop troops. And I really don't want to think about how durable 6 DC worth of drop ships spread out over 3 ships would be! It'd be almost impossible to stop a drop like that, even with TK AA weapons. The Drop Ship has the disadvantage that it can potentially die to a single shot, but it's highly defended.

The Bikers are easy enough to change, originally I had considered the Rakkat Riders, it's really not a large change. Just call them Saurus Lizard Riders and exchange the Swords/Axes with 'Giant Claws/Teeth/Horns' on the model, instant giant-komodo-dragon rider!
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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:20 pm 
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The Vertex just doesn't look that huge to me.

This is not a big sticking point.  It's a proxy.  If it turns out to be the right size, great, and if it's bigger, something else can be used.  It's up to indiv preference.

That's one of the good things about working from scratch.  If a certain proxy doesn't fit YOUR idea, you can change it.

instant giant-komodo-dragon rider!

Perfect!  Love it!

At this rate, we'll be ready for playtesting in no time!

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 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:44 pm 
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This is a responce to my "small WE" post over in the discussion forum. ?It's from nealhunt.
I'm tired of the "created by ancient race and using tech they don't understand" schtick.


This is a perfect example of why we want other peoples comments and suggestions.

While I would never suggest we restructure our plans because one person doesn't like them, it's inspired a possible solution to a problem.

I have had some reservations about making smaller vehicles WE. ?This is mainly because I don't think they will be well received. ?We've only received 3 unique responses but 2 were negative.

We have a limited number of walkers to use as proxy AV.

Here is my suggestion. ?Anyone is free to debate it.

Instead of having Xlan designed vehicles and OO vehicles. ?Lets state there are NO working OO vehicles except the Great Temples. ?

The Xlan have used what OO tech they could to build their own vehicles to carry on the fight. ?

Certain things were more salvagable or easier to replicate than others, making certain vehicles more powerful (and therefore more expensive) than others. ?

Esp. skimmers over walkers which use almost exclusively Xlan design.

The skimmers are powerful, because they carry OO weapons, but not WE because they now use a Xlan built chasis patterned after the original OO chasis.

How does this feel?




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 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:06 pm 
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Another post from nealhunt

I'm tired of the "created by ancient race and using tech they don't understand" schtick. ?


Just out of curiosity, who else is doing this?

Orks - created by brainboyz and don't have tech aside from inborn "genetic knowledge"

Imperium - all kinds of lost tech and tech-superstition, marines created by a god-emperor

Eldar/dark eldar - lost tech is mostly webway stuff, entire race and culture shaped by reaction to a deity (Slaanesh)

Necrons - basically an entire race composed of self-repairing lost tech created by their godlike leaders

And, of course, there are tons of other examples in similar genres like lost tech for Battletech mechs.


QUOTE
I know how to operate a computer. ?I can even put in new parts and change things around. ?But I couldn't build one to save my life.


Not that this is really on topic, but that's not at all the same. ?There are thousands of peope who do know that are easily accessible and if you really cared, you could simply go to the library and find a book on the theory and construction of everything from silikon chips to floppy discs and learn it yourself. ?The knowledge is in no way "lost."

Historically, if human beings have "lost" knowledge, like is alleged with the destruction of the Great Library at Alexandria, it stops being practiced within a generation.


Orks have genetic knowledge, but it's not like a mek really doesn't understand what he's doing.  Just because it's "genetic knowledge" doesn't make it any less "knowledge" ?I've seen no fluff to indicate the Lizardmen received similar genetic knowledge

Imperium: they aren't using lost tech, just looking for it, we aren't doing tech superstition, and the knowledge of how to create marines isn't lost.

Eldar-their culture being shaped by their reactions to a god. ?Sound like just about every culture I've ever heard of, real or fictional

Necrons- I'm not real familiar with this race, but their gods are still around, so I don't think the tech is lost. ?Furthermore, the tech was something created by the Necrontyr, not their gods

On the topic of my computer example. ?I was in no way suggesting that this was lost technology and I think you know that. ?While I might eventually be able to figure out how to build one, I'm on the same tech level as the builders, not thousands of years behind.

Humans may stop using knowledge they don't understand within a generation, but we aren't talking about humans. ?Humans don't have a genetically programmed drive to do whatever it takes to continue their mission.

Lastly, if you don't like the background, talk to GW. ?We aren't making it up, just adding small bits to it. ?

It's seems you don't like any of the GW background, so apparently you just disregard it any play anyway. ?That's fine, but ?I see no reason you couldn't do the same with our work.

You don't HAVE to like this army list, or play against it, or even look at it, but it's not like we're sitting over here drinking and smoking pot, spewing out random ideas. ?I may be one of the new guys but I'm not an idiot and I do my research. ?This is being done in an intelligent logical manner.

I'm certainly not trying to pick a fight with you or anybody, but when questions are raised about my work, you'd better expect an answer.




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Ilushia
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:51 pm 
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I really don't think it's an issue leaving them as WE. I play AMTL regularly and the Warhounds are really not that much larger then an IG tank. They're smaller then the IG SHTs infact. And are only about the size of one of the medium-to-large tanks of the Krays, so I'd have no trouble picturing them at DC 3, especially with advanced technology.

Other thing to remember about ours in specific is that this isn't really tech that they don't understand just tech that they can't easily replicate. It might well be they DO have the capacity to build them. But the construction of them is so difficult and expensive that it's not undertaken on any large scale. Think IRL Battleships or Aircraft Carriers. Certainly we can build these, they're not even that hard TO build, but they're such a massive cost to construct that we don't build them on any large scale. The Slann/Xlan tanks might be similar. They require some very exotic items to create, and almost certainly require some very rare/difficult to find things to make them function. So it wouldn't be a surprise they'd be fielded in small quantities even if the creators understand perfectly how they are built and function.
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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:58 pm 
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more feedback, this time from Justiniel

I don't have a problem with something small having a large DC per se but I do see problems when facing such, you start be saying 'my Warlord can stomp all over those tiny things' then during the game realise that this tiny thing is as powerful as your Warlord, 'which tiny thing is it again?' as half a dozen similarly sized things go by.
So to sum up it would have to be very specifically ponted out during warm-up (especially if people are going to be using different proxies)

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 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:06 pm 
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I really don't think it's an issue leaving them as WE


I really wish we could get more responses or input on this.  From a strickly personal stand point, I don't have a problem with this, but I foresee GREAT controversy.

We're up to 4 responses, 1 pos. 2 neg. and 1 that certainly looks like a negative.

We need to think long and hard about this before proceding.  In the DRM line, there are 2 WE sized vehicles, we should consider sticking with those 2.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:24 pm 
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Orks are definitely described as not really understanding how stuff works, even the Meks. Some descriptions have gone so far as to say Ork tech really doesn't work at all and only the Orks' psychic powers channeled by their belief that it works makes any of their devices function.

It's also stated that the Eldar don't really know how the webway works, only how to navigate it (and that just in part).  The exodites have lost some tech that the craftworlds maintain.  Eldar were also created by the Old Ones, like the Orks (and Slann).

I think it's pretty clear that the AM does not understand how portions of the tech work.  I'd say that annointing titans with "magic oil" while chanting incantations is safely in the realm of superstition.  Marines' genetic tech is treated with similar religious reverence and ceremony.

Necron tech isn't "lost" per se, but it is dead.  The race was essentially created by the C'Tan.

The "lost tech as religious artifact" is rampant.  Dark Suns by Holistic games uses it.  The guould (sp?) on Stargate use tech they don't fully understand from a mysterious ancient race.  And so on.

===

The available background for Slann is quite sketchy and varied, so you can pick any of a wide range of potential setups for the race.

I don't have a problem with the Slann having some tech quirks based on their descent from the Old Ones.  They could easily have lost technology that the Old Ones had access to and had provided them but that doesn't mean that all their high tech gear has to be artifacts from that time period.  In other words, even if they can't change the orbit of planets at will any longer that doesn't have to stop them from being able to build their own grav tanks.

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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:18 pm 
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I don't have a problem with the Slann having some tech quirks based on their descent from the Old Ones. ?They could easily have lost technology that the Old Ones had access to and had provided them but that doesn't mean that all their high tech gear has to be artifacts from that time period. ?In other words, even if they can't change the orbit of planets at will any longer that doesn't have to stop them from being able to build their own grav tanks.


Sticking to the subject in this topic, this race HAS their own technology. ?It's more advanced than humans. ?Their supreme commander is a distinct unit with skimmer ability. ?Whether there will be other skimmer/grav tanks is not yet determined ?

WFB Lizardmen live in rough terrain & have a few rules that allow them to ignore it's effects. ?A logical translation of that was to give them almost exclusively walker type AV.

The Old Ones (I commonly use OO) technology will be almost exclusively WE. ?There will not be that many of them on the table, but will be a variety of them to choose from. ?Our main problem was that the proxies we really wanted to use were not WE sized. ?

For the record, while the OO tech is a valuable asset in their fight, I don't recall anyone mentioning in this topic that the Xlan/Slann worship either it or the OO themselves. ?I'm not sure I recall anything like that in the WFB fluff, but rest assured, I WILL check.

As I see it, this is the simplest solution. ?If members of our panel feel that the OO vehicles should remain WE, I believe we should begin looking to ranges other than DRM for proxies. ?It has been mentioned before that we are in no way limited by that line in the developement of this list.




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nealhunt
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:02 pm 
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I don't think that overt worship is necessary to fall into the cliche but I don't want to harp on that.


As far as tech, grav tanks were just an example.  As it is, I think if you want to use the WFB stuff as precedent and go with some of the older Slann stuff (and some is probably about as good as could be done) going with some sort of hovering fire platform makes sense.  I would probably think about writing some sort of warp-based hover tech background unrelated to actual grav manipulation would be better, but it's still basically a grav tank.

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 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:42 pm 
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I would probably think about writing some sort of warp-based hover tech background unrelated to actual grav manipulation would be better, but it's still basically a grav tank.


Well, the reason I said grav tank, is that our resident WFB Liz expert stated that they were heavy into geomancy and earth magic.  Some of the fluff we've set up for weapons is grav based, so actual grav tanks seemed to fit.  

While we aren't using WFB weapons or all of the WFB names, it's the only real substance to build on.  To try to keep the army fluffy, we've been trying to stick with a 40k representation of what's found in WFB.  

The grav weapons are one example, replacing FB Terradons w/ jump pack troops is another.  Most stuff has a fairly straight forward "change the mechanic and drop into game" solution.  FB Skinks use bows and blowpipes so they become shooters.  Liz are good at handling difficult terrain, so their vehicles become walkers.  A few things have not and those we're still working on.

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 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:29 pm 
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Sounds like a good point to take an actual step back, until you have this hammered out (or hammer eachother). ?I'm not stressed about the background, as long as the 'walkers + skimmers' quirk is kept.

The ins and outs of this skimmer/WE/limited tech discussion are rapidly becoming confusing to me, so I'm going to lay it - and my own thoughts - out neatly so I don't have to move my lips when reading.

*Should skimmers be limited - for background reasons, balance reasons, or whatever?

*If yes: is inclusion in the titan/aircraft allowance a suitable limiting factor?

*If they are included in this allowance, they would have to be WEs, yes? ?Is there anyone who thinks the light and medium skimmers should be AV?

*If so, is there much difference between a DC1 WE and an AV? ?As far as I can see, there might be a couple of small issues about transports and 'barging' in an assault.

*Something I've been struggling with: there's been a fair amount of agreement that light and medium skimmers should be DC2 or DC3. ?Why? ?Increased survivability against enemy WEs? ?Or what?
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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:11 pm 
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Yeah, some definite details need to be pinned down and set in stone.  

I am 100% behind the walkers and skimmers concept.

I cannot shake the idea that we will see too much opposition to using small skimmers as WE.  IT JUST WILL NOT FLY!

I have no problem sticking with the DRM skimmers.  But they need to be OO tech rebuilt on a less durable Liz chasis.  DRM has 2 WE sized skimmers we can use for actual WE.

If we MUST go w/ only WE skimmers, then we HAVE to look elsewhere.  Just design them and let everyone fill in as they like.  Again, if Ilushia can get away with using the small proxies for WE in his gaming circle, good for him.  I don't beleive for a minute that most can.

BTW My vote goes to the first option, but I am not the only one with a say here.

If we go w/ option 2 we need 1 or 2 more walker options to round out the army.  If we go with option 1, the skimmers will fill the empty roles.

I'm going to spend a bit less evening time (EST) here for the next day or two, only so I can get my fluff organized and what I think the background and army should look like.  

Personally I am tech illiterate.  I have no website to post it on, so I can try to put it up in segments on the board or send it to someone.  It will just be a word doc and an excel doc

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nealhunt
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:25 pm 
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Well, the reason I said grav tank, is that our resident WFB Liz expert stated that they were heavy into geomancy and earth magic.  Some of the fluff we've set up for weapons is grav based, so actual grav tanks seemed to fit.


Well, that's cool, too.

Like I said, I'm mostly looking for an excuse to buy DRM minis.

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