The Nightbringer |
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Ilushia
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Post subject: The Nightbringer  Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 6:19 am |
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I've found myself lately wondering just why I'd want to take the Nightbringer over the Deceiver. Nightbringer is certainly better in melee against normal infantry in terms of number of attacks and hits, in theory. But he's virtually worthless not in melee. The Gaze of Death is nice, if he can get a full 6 into base-to-base. But it allows normal saves and reinforced armor saves. Meanwhile the Deceiver gets a very nice 6BP Disrupt attack and 2 TK(1) attacks, plus first strike. Even at 4+ there's a good chance he'll wipe 2-3 squads out before the enemy gets to attack him.
I'm kinda wondering, has anyone actually fielded the Nightbringer? And if so what was your opinion on him? From the way the stats are written, right now, I'd basically always take the Deceiver I think. He's more useful over-all and a bit less of a risk since there's a good chance he'll off most of the enemy before they get to hit him against smaller units. And can place lots of blast markers on bigger ones as prep for assaults by other units.
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Hojyn
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Post subject: The Nightbringer Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 12:50 pm |
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These are exactly my feelings as well.
A teleporting 6BP Disrupt weapon and TK CC attacks to boost is just great, while the Nightbringer is only mildly useful outside of assaults and even then, needs to get in base-to-base contact to become interesting.
If the Gaze of Death became a "Small Arms, 15cm, +1 attack per unit in range" instead of "Base contact, +1 attack per unit in range", it would make the Nightbringer a more attractive option... but I think I still would prefer the Deceiver anyway.
The thing is, the Deceiver is something the Necron army lacks : barrage fire and Disrupt. The Nightbringer is just another unit for the assault phase, and the Necrons don't really need more than what they already have.
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Ilushia
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Post subject: The Nightbringer Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 9:40 pm |
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I was thinking about that myself, and it'd help... That'd make him better then a Monolith, at least, which would be a step in the right direction. I'm not entirely sure what I'd do with him really. In 40K scale he's one of the biggest, baddest guys in the game. He fills one role that the Necrons don't do very well: Melee. Necrons fire-fight like nuts, but they're very very weak in melee due to low Initiative value and near-total lack of melee weapons. Nightbringer does so wonderfully in that scale, and it's highly useful. In Epic there's not a lot of difference between melee and fire-fight, so he's kinda left being redundent. And I'm really not entirely sure how to fix that... Even if he didn't feel 'redundent', I'd still count him as worse then the Deceiver, because the Deceiver can play set-up for other Necron units who teleport in and start assaulting. Placing lots of blast markers... The only way I can see Nightbringer being all that useful is killing Titans. And even then the First Strike of the Deceiver gives him a good chance to off smaller titans (Warhounds and other 'light' titans) before they get a chance to do anything!
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corey3750
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Post subject: The Nightbringer Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 5:47 am |
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well, the Deciever is a tough. Teleporting individual that can chew up titans... or terminators, or Land Raiders, etc. He gets 3 base attacks, Gaze of Death attacks, and the TK scythe attacks. That's a lot of attacks for a 3DC war engine.
Yes, he's an assault guy. And if you are building your Necron army for close assault he's great. Because he's a supreme commander.
That means he can draw other units into battle with him.
Sure, you CAN do that with the Deciever, but why would you want to? He's more effective over all at range.
I was thinking of uppping the Gaze to a MW attack (and don't forget, he can Barge in as a WE and get a lot of people in base contact) in order to make it live up to the name.
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"Do not come whining to me because you are weaker than your enemy." - Alexander Corvinus
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Ilushia
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Post subject: The Nightbringer Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 6:34 am |
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I was thinking that myself actually. Making Gaze a MW would make him a viable choice, I think. Otherwise I'd almost always rather have the Deceiver, simply for his 6BP Disrupt attack.
Being able to barge does rock a lot. It's the only thing which really makes him worth taking at all. Especially with the limit that melee hits will ONLY hit melee guys. It'd make him wonderful for chewing through tank companies and similar things which the basic Necrons have real trouble hurting. Which would be about right, IMHO, for him.
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Chroma
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Post subject: The Nightbringer Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 4:23 pm |
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Location: Montréal, QC, Canada
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What about giving The Nightbringer infiltrator? Then he's got as many special abilites as The Deceiver...
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Lord Inquisitor
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Post subject: The Nightbringer Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:16 pm |
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Infiltrator seems far more Deceiver's style...
Actually, I think it is quite nice that Deceiver might be more useful than the Nightbringer, less powerful in 40K but more strategic.
That said, I have to say I don't think the Deceiver should be a combat (or ranged) monster capable of eating titans. Certainly not capable of blasting stuff away with "Dispair". That really doesn't sit well with me, and has no 40K counterpart.
So how about making the Deceiver more "cunning" (in your best Baldrick voice)? The Deceiver shouldn't be something that is a weapon. Some suggestions:
Deceiver can, once a turn, force a re-roll of an enemy initiative test OR cancel out a supreme commander re-roll.
Dispair is a 45cm 'weapon' but does no damage - instead it automatically adds D6 (or 2D3, perhaps) Blast Markers to the enemy formation.
All formations within (30cm) of the Deceiver must re-roll all intiaitive rolls/terrain tests/successful hit rolls.
Anything like that would give you the choice between raw power (Nightbringer) and a Cunning Plan (Deceiver.)
My two cents anyway (using local currency now  )
Lord =I=
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Chroma
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Post subject: The Nightbringer Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:29 pm |
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| Quote (Lord Inquisitor @ 01 June 2006 (17:16)) | | Infiltrator seems far more Deceiver's style... |
I see it not as sneaking, but as The Nightbringer just going right through the enemy to get to the targets He most wants to kill... like Death Incarnate... 
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Lord Inquisitor
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Post subject: The Nightbringer Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:35 pm |
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Eh, fair enough. It cetainly would be nice to get it into combat. However, it does mean it can double it's charge range, which makes it 'feel' too fast to me. The C'Tan is one of the slowest things in the Necron army in 40K.
I still think the problem really lies with Deceiver, though.
Lord =I=
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corey3750
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Post subject: The Nightbringer Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:59 pm |
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I've thought about some ideas sort of like that, but the problem is that I want to avoid doing too much stuff that's outside the rules.
I still have to get this list past the Committie after all. 
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Ilushia
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Post subject: The Nightbringer Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:26 pm |
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I'd like to see his scythe go to +2 EA at TK D3. That'd give him a reasonable chance to take down small and medium titans with consistency. And go a long way towards closing the difference between them IMHO. Gaze of Death going to Small Arms instead of Assault Weapon would be nice as well. That'd make him a very nice destroyer, but not so good that he'd be able to crush entire armies alone. Since he's a War Engine it'd mean if he were in melee with an enemy titan he'd only get +2 EA with TK D3. Instead of the current +1 TK D3 and +X attacks with X as it's starting DC (This is WICKED against Warlords and Great Gargants. But kinda useless against normal troops.)
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Lord Inquisitor
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Post subject: The Nightbringer Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:29 pm |
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Well, the C'Tan Deceiver seems to be exceptional enough to warrant a special rule all of its own in my book. If it is balanced pointswise, what's the problem?
And the ability doesn't need to be that farfetched. After all, forcing/cancelling out a re-roll should be pretty easy to point - mechanically it is very similar to a supreme commander.
The only reason I'm harping on about this is that something like this would add bucketloads of character to the C'Tan, rather than just another unit with a big "gun", and give a pleasing choice between brains and brawn with the two C'Tan. As it is the Deceiver is simply the "shooty" C'Tan, which just feels entirely wrong.
Lord =I=
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Ilushia
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Post subject: The Nightbringer Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 11:08 pm |
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| Quote (Lord Inquisitor @ 01 June 2006 (22:29)) | Well, the C'Tan Deceiver seems to be exceptional enough to warrant a special rule all of its own in my book. If it is balanced pointswise, what's the problem?
And the ability doesn't need to be that farfetched. After all, forcing/cancelling out a re-roll should be pretty easy to point - mechanically it is very similar to a supreme commander.
The only reason I'm harping on about this is that something like this would add bucketloads of character to the C'Tan, rather than just another unit with a big "gun", and give a pleasing choice between brains and brawn with the two C'Tan. As it is the Deceiver is simply the "shooty" C'Tan, which just feels entirely wrong.
Lord =I= |
Hmmm... You may have a point there. I rather like the idea of him being able to scare people off the board with his Despair power though. It feels right (since he can break units instantly in 40K and it just makes sense. Scare your enemies into running away). As far as cancelling out reroll... That's fairly painful. I could see his Dispair being something like 'Place two blast markers next to eachother, roll to hit as for a Disrupt weapon, but no armor saves are made and no units are killed'. But I think most of that would make him too weak. It isn't that the Deceiver is too good (He feels right for 300 points to me, given he's a huge target and there's very little he can hide behind) it's that the Nightbringer just isn't good enough, IMHO. I'd rather spend that 300 points on almost anything BUT the Nightbringer. I suspect you could get better results out of a Phalanx with 2 Immortals for 15 more points then you would out of Nightbringer 90% of the time.
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corey3750
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Post subject: The Nightbringer Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:44 am |
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I don't disagree that it's a great, and favorful idea, but it's really a matter of getting the list approved, and I know that some of the people who'll be making that decsion don't like special rules.
the more I put in, the greater the resistance to the list will be regardless of wether or not it's point balanced. 
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"Do not come whining to me because you are weaker than your enemy." - Alexander Corvinus
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Ilushia
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Post subject: The Nightbringer Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:47 am |
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| Quote (corey3750 @ 02 June 2006 (05:44)) | I don't disagree that it's a great, and favorful idea, but it's really a matter of getting the list approved, and I know that some of the people who'll be making that decsion don't like special rules.
the more I put in, the greater the resistance to the list will be regardless of wether or not it's point balanced. ? |
I'd just make Nightbringer have 2 attacks with his Scythe and make his Gaze of Death be a fire-fight instead of melee attack. That'd probably make him just fine, IMHO. He's still quite likely to get beaten up against most enemies due to weight of number, but he's far more likely to kill enough to make up for their numbers and make him worth using.
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