Ideas for the Bio titans |
|
BlackLegion
|
Post subject: Ideas for the Bio titans  Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 11:11 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
 |
 |
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8711
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
|
I guess the breath-weapons where added after someone saw the big fire-breathing bugs in StarshipTroopers 
_________________ We are returned! http://www.epic-wargaming.de/
|
|
| Top |
|
 |
|
Chroma
|
Post subject: Ideas for the Bio titans Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 11:20 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
 |
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada
|
|
If we want the Ripper Tentacles to have an "attack nullifying" effect, why not have them negate the "Extra Attacks" of any unit in base contact?
_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer
Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Evil and Chaos
|
Post subject: Ideas for the Bio titans Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 11:33 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
 |
Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
|
| Quote (Chroma @ 23 May 2006 (23:20)) | | If we want the Ripper Tentacles to have an "attack nullifying" effect, why not have them negate the "Extra Attacks" of any unit in base contact? |
A good idea!
Lash-Whips : Choose one model in base-to-base contact, any 'extra attacks' it may have in its profile may not be used in this combat. This includes titan arm-weapons that give 'extra attacks'.
A simple little rule that could work, and also harks back to the old AT rules.
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Evil and Chaos
|
Post subject: Ideas for the Bio titans Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 11:39 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
|
Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
|
| Quote (Ilushia @ 23 May 2006 (22:54)) | | I don't know about just 'adding' two Bio-Cannons to them. That doesn't feel quite right. |
Perhaps the stats need to be changed, but stat-wise all titan class bio-cannons in 40k have the same stats, with minor differences in Ballistic Skill.
Range 48", Strength 10, Ap3, Assault1, Large Blast.
Thus all three titan class tyranids* with access to bio-cannons should have the same general statline, again with minor changes in ballistic skill.
My suggestion would be to use the current statline for now, as that is apparently a fairly balanced one.
Thus:
Harridan: 2 x Bio-Cannon /45cm /MW 5+ /Ignore Cover
Hierophant: 2 x Bio-Cannon /45cm /MW 5+ /Ignore Cover
Barbed Hierodule: Twin-Linked Bio-Cannon /45cm /MW 4+ /Ignore Cover
Or something similar anyway.
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Ilushia
|
Post subject: Ideas for the Bio titans Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 12:02 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189
|
|
Personally I think the Bio-Cannon is over-powered right now compared to it's 40K equivilent (it's actually weaker then the Demolisher Cannon is in terms of damage-done, being AP 3 instead of AP 2, in 40K.) But that's beside the point. In 40K the Heirophant is kitted out to kill infantry. It's designed to kill tanks and soldiers, because that's most of what there is in 40K. If they gave it Razor Claws instead of one of the Bio-Cannons in 40K scale it'd rarely see use (rarer then right now anyway) because no one would want to spend 850 points on something with only one functional weapon and one overkill weapon. In Epic that's not true. The razor claw is useful, it's important even since it's what gives a Heirophant the TK power it needs to kill enemy titans. I'd limit the Heirophant to 1 Biocannon myself. Though I think it'd be easy to simply call the Breath Weapon something else and make it be the Heirophant-scale cannon. This thing is much much larger then the Heirodule under current fluff material. Perhaps it can project a larger stream of acid then the Heirodule can? I dunno. I like the functionality of the breath weapon, but it could probably do with a re-naming.
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
BlackLegion
|
Post subject: Ideas for the Bio titans Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 12:08 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
|
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8711
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
|
|
What is the justifying about the bio-cannon having ignore-cover?
MW is fine, because St10 and Ap3 means it wounds 90% of its targeds on a 2+ and only Terminator armour (2+ Save) can be used to be save against a hit.
_________________ We are returned! http://www.epic-wargaming.de/
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Evil and Chaos
|
Post subject: Ideas for the Bio titans Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 2:37 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
|
Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
|
| Quote (BlackLegion @ 24 May 2006 (00:08)) | What is the justifying about the bio-cannon having ignore-cover?
MW is fine, because St10 and Ap3 means it wounds 90% of its targeds on a 2+ and only Terminator armour (2+ Save) can be used to be save against a hit. |
I don't know why the bio-cannon has been given ignore-cover, it has nothing of the sort in 40k.
I also agree that it should be a 5+ MW, not so likely to hit, but powerful when it does, that's exactly how the bio-cannons operate in 40k.
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Evil and Chaos
|
Post subject: Ideas for the Bio titans Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 2:44 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
|
Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
|
|
[quote="Ilushia,24 May 2006 (00:02)"][/quote]
"I'd limit the Heirophant to 1 Biocannon myself. "
In 40k the Heirophant has 2 biocannons... the new ForgeWorld model will have 2 biocannons too.
"Though I think it'd be easy to simply call the Breath Weapon something else and make it be the Heirophant-scale cannon. This thing is much much larger then the Heirodule under current fluff material. Perhaps it can project a larger stream of acid then the Heirodule can?"
In 40k the acid spray is an ability unique to the Sythed Hierodule, the Hierophant has no comparable ability. Whenever the Hierophant's breath weapon was added, I think it's a mistake, it operates nothing like any of the abilities of the Hierophant in 40k (Which the new FW model will be identically armed to).
Again, I'm dubious of a Hierodule with a breath weapon and no bio-cannons, when the model will have bio-cannons and look identical to the 40k model which has no breath weapon...
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
ragnarok
|
Post subject: Ideas for the Bio titans Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 8:43 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
 |
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm
Posts: 2084
Location: Reading, England
|
| Quote (BlackLegion @ 24 May 2006 (00:08)) | What is the justifying about the bio-cannon having ignore-cover?
MW is fine, because St10 and Ap3 means it wounds 90% of its targeds on a 2+ and only Terminator armour (2+ Save) can be used to be save against a hit. |
They use the large blast template. I can't remember if they don't allow cover saves in 40K, but I'm sure that much pyro acid flying around is going to get into most hiding places.
Also an idea to reduce the effectiveness of stand off titans. What about reducing the range on the bio cannons to 30cm? 5cm more than an engage move.
_________________
Tyranid air marshal
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Ilushia
|
Post subject: Ideas for the Bio titans Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 8:54 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189
|
|
I think the Ignore Cover on the thing was to show that it covers a large area, and thus cover isn't gonna do much good against it. The fluff material from the old AT stuff claims that Biocannons fire gigantic slug-like organisms covered in powerful bio-acids, which explode on contact and bathe the area in their acidic goo. Sortof like really really big versions of the Deathspitter. The trouble with giving the Heirophant two Bio-Cannons is where do you then get the ability to make TK melee attacks? It has no such abilities in 40K. It's just a really freaking gigantic monstrous creature. I suppose you could claim it's like the Bloodthirster, but even the Bloodthirster only gets 3x TK (1) attacks. I'd rather the thing have only one Biocannon if any. I don't quite get why the thing is MW when the Demolisher Cannon (S10 AP2, also large blast) isn't. It's just as strong, better at killing armor, same blast radius... Yet in Epic it's significantly weaker? Just feels odd to me. Of course the MW/Normal Weapon divisions seem more based on the old 2nd edition rules (Back when Multi-Meltas could one-hit-kill Greater Daemons and had a larger blast template then Plasma Cannons which required time to recharge).
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
ragnarok
|
Post subject: Ideas for the Bio titans Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 10:51 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
|
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm
Posts: 2084
Location: Reading, England
|
|
The whole bio cannon and TK attacks is why I suggested that you get to choose. Either two guns, two CC TK attacks or one of each.
It is only a little titan, it can't do everything.
_________________
Tyranid air marshal
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Evil and Chaos
|
Post subject: Ideas for the Bio titans Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 12:50 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
|
Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
|
| Quote (Ilushia @ 24 May 2006 (08:54)) | | I think the Ignore Cover on the thing was to show that it covers a large area, and thus cover isn't gonna do much good against it. The fluff material from the old AT stuff claims that Biocannons fire gigantic slug-like organisms covered in powerful bio-acids, which explode on contact and bathe the area in their acidic goo. Sortof like really really big versions of the Deathspitter. The trouble with giving the Heirophant two Bio-Cannons is where do you then get the ability to make TK melee attacks? It has no such abilities in 40K. It's just a really freaking gigantic monstrous creature. I suppose you could claim it's like the Bloodthirster, but even the Bloodthirster only gets 3x TK (1) attacks. I'd rather the thing have only one Biocannon if any. I don't quite get why the thing is MW when the Demolisher Cannon (S10 AP2, also large blast) isn't. It's just as strong, better at killing armor, same blast radius... Yet in Epic it's significantly weaker? Just feels odd to me. Of course the MW/Normal Weapon divisions seem more based on the old 2nd edition rules (Back when Multi-Meltas could one-hit-kill Greater Daemons and had a larger blast template then Plasma Cannons which required time to recharge). |
Interesting point.
In 40k Hierophants do not have TK abilities.
They have 5 (6 when charging) attacks that allow no armour saves (MacroWeapons then).
Perhaps this is justification for allowing alternate weapons fits.
Thus you get a Long-Range *Barbed* Hierophant, with two bio-cannons,
and also a CC-based *Scythed* Hierophant, with two giant claws that give it TK attacks.
There's even precedent for the Barbed and Scythed types in the Hierodule... and the 40k background states that there are 'rumours' of other varients of the Hierophant existing.
I don't see why we couldn't have Barbed and Scythed Hierophants, it solves a lot of continuity problems.
The Scythed Hierophant could even gain the bio-acid flame template spray that the 7.1 multi-use Hierophant has, just like the Scythed Hierodule has in 40k!
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
BlackLegion
|
Post subject: Ideas for the Bio titans Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 2:11 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
|
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8711
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
|
|
If it is so similar to the Demolisher Cannon, then give the Bio-Cannon 45cm AP3+/AT4+, Ignore Cover
_________________ We are returned! http://www.epic-wargaming.de/
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Evil and Chaos
|
Post subject: Ideas for the Bio titans Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 3:23 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
|
Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
|
| Quote (BlackLegion @ 24 May 2006 (14:11)) | | If it is so similar to the Demolisher Cannon, then give the Bio-Cannon 45cm AP3+/AT4+, Ignore Cover |
I'd give it AT 3+, but other than that it looks good.
|
|
| Top |
|
|
