Manta Tweaking - correct points or not? |
|
nealhunt
|
Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?  Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 4:06 pm |
|
| Purestrain |
 |
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
|
|
Spacecraft: Only one can be plotted to arrive per turn.
TRC: With the Gargants in the OGBM list, it was largely a matter of assaults. However, similar things could be done with the Manta with a twist. It could claim an instant crossfire for several formations. It ports in with its own AA umbrella, allowing Tau aircraft to operate deep in enemy territory with even more coverage than normal. It can pop into the blind spot of an enemy WE's TK weapons (removing potential Sustained Fire threats). And, despite protests to the contrary, it could be used effectively to support multiple assaults by Tau. 8 4+FF shots is nothing to sneeze at.
For example, take a force with lots of Gun Drone formations - cheap, fast, expendable, and (for the price) decent FF. Teleport the Manta into support and send in the Drones to initiate assault. If the drones lose, so what? The Manta has BM capacity to spare. The chances of being wiped out on a clipping assault by the drones is minimal so even if you are using the Experimental Rules it should work.
Basically, teleporting would give it huge amounts of flexibility with respect to optimizing its various abilities.
_________________
Neal
|
|
| Top |
|
 |
|
Chroma
|
Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not? Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 4:46 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
 |
 |
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada
|
| Quote (Ilushia @ 13 May 2006 (13:05)) | | It's possible it could just have the Teleport ability as well as Planetfall. Teleport being it's ability to fly high up into the atmosphere and descend quickly. |
Though, with teleporting the Manta, you'd be rolling a whopping *eight* dice for arrival blast markers, which could wind up being a real pain!
_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer
Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Ilushia
|
Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not? Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 4:48 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189
|
|
If you do give it planetfall without a ship, how do you determine it's drop-point? I know most of the folks have claimed you should plot it at game start... It seems to me this would lead to some confusion, while a space battleship is certainly large enough to be very difficult to adjust course or hide from the enemy the Manta is not. It's big, but nothing like that big. Would it be possible to work with a 'pick a place, drop it on that place, roll for scatter', chosen at the time you arrive with it? It might or might not actually work any better, I'm not sure. The other problem with no-starship-planetfall is how do you work out when it arrives or where you measure from? You could place it like a starship, edge of the board and measure that way, declaring drop-time to opponent at the start... But once again that doesn't feel right to me. These things are the size of titans, but they're microscopic compared to real starships.
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Xisor
|
Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not? Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 5:01 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:11 pm
Posts: 515
|
| Quote (Ilushia @ 15 May 2006 (16:48)) | | It's big, but nothing like that big. |
It's almost a Starship! Okay, it's still rather small in comparison to say, the PlanetKiller, but it's a borderline Escort in every piece of fluff yet.
I think to keep some semblence of 'balance' for now, you simply reference it's point of entry from a table corner for simplicity's sake. My belief in it's ability to 'self planetfall' is that it really is almost a Spaceship itself. Thunderhawks and Vampires are styill typically *given away* by the presence of a larger starship.
[Slightly off topic]I still think there's merit for inclusion of the Emissary class instead of the Custodian. Why? Well: As I propose for the Emissary, it could act like a 'really big' Manta, allowing a ' drop Cadre' to be deployed[1 Cadre + 2 Contingents]. How are they deployed? Why by planetfall of course. Taking the Emissary allows 1 Cadre & 2 Contingents to gainthe Planetfall Ability. These formations must be entirely jump-pack, jetpack or vehicle mounted, but cannot be War Engines.[/back on topic]
Xisor
_________________
"Number 6 calls to you
The Cylon Detector beckons
Your girlfriend is a toaster"
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Gotchaye
|
Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not? Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 6:53 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:25 am
Posts: 59
|
|
Ilushia - the same could be said for anything that planetfalls. The spaceship doesn't need to pass directly over the point, and things like Thunderhawks and Vampires are much more mobile than a Manta - if it can change course, surely they can. I think it's more to represent the planning that has to go into this sort of thing - the Manta (and other planetfallers) has to do all of its calculations and preparation before you know where the enemy is.
Although, if the Manta gains a self-planetfall ability, how can we justify not giving the same ability to other space-capable ships? Thunderhawks function as bombers, so what stops them from doing the same thing the Manta does?
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Steele
|
Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not? Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 7:53 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:40 am
Posts: 423
Location: Duisburg , Germany
|
| Quote (Ilushia @ 15 May 2006 (17:48)) | | If you do give it planetfall without a ship, how do you determine it's drop-point? I know most of the folks have claimed you should plot it at game start... It seems to me this would lead to some confusion, while a space battleship is certainly large enough to be very difficult to adjust course or hide from the enemy the Manta is not. It's big, but nothing like that big. Would it be possible to work with a 'pick a place, drop it on that place, roll for scatter', chosen at the time you arrive with it? It might or might not actually work any better, I'm not sure. The other problem with no-starship-planetfall is how do you work out when it arrives or where you measure from? You could place it like a starship, edge of the board and measure that way, declaring drop-time to opponent at the start... But once again that doesn't feel right to me. These things are the size of titans, but they're microscopic compared to real starships. |
I don?t wanna rant but, why are you so unflexible? You are the second person who seems to stick to the line in the rules. Why can?t you plot the Droppoint basing it to your table edge and the sides? A small diagram of your table with arrows pointing the starting point and voila?...
Cheers!
Steele
_________________
Quid pro Quo
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Steele
|
Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not? Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 7:56 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:40 am
Posts: 423
Location: Duisburg , Germany
|
So to sum it up:
We want the Manta (at least me) to Free Planetfall (CS proposal), Ini 1+ , and start with this additional ability with 850 Points?
Let?s test it... 
Cheers!
Steele
_________________
Quid pro Quo
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Chroma
|
Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not? Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 8:38 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
|
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada
|
| Quote (Steele @ 15 May 2006 (19:56)) | So to sum it up:
We want the Manta (at least me) to Free Planetfall (CS proposal), Ini 1+ , and start with this additional ability with 850 Points? |
One question in all this: what "order" is the Manta taking to "planetfall" and what happens if it fails its activation? (I guess that's two questions...)
_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer
Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Ilushia
|
Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not? Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 8:59 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189
|
|
Steele - I could potentially see doing it that way. My question was more along the lines of 'Just how WOULD you do it?' then 'Can it be done?'. I have no doubt we could come up with something which would work well, I'm just wondering about if it's necessary in it's complexity or not. With the self-Planetfall ability, how many of you would really wait till after the first turn to drop it? My biggest question, I guess, is what advantage does making up a new set of planetfall rules for non-starship-planetfall serve compared to, say, an ammended Teleport rule which accounts for scatter on the way down? I like the idea that the Tau can drop this thing wherever they need it, that feels right to me, but how would it work?
Another possibility, and one I'm sure people will hate, is to make it have the option to act like an aircraft or a war engine, sortof like a war-engine which comes in and lands to disembark/reembark troops. With the stipulation that it cannot make a disengage move on the same turn that it decides to 'hang around' longer over the field. So the Tau player can either make pass-runs and risk it not showing up after turn 1, or can keep it hanging around. This seems to fit with the profile of the ship as what amounts to a super-heavy aircraft with the ability to hang around on the battlefield rather then being forced to move away. Dunno if it would make the ship too strong or not though.
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
nealhunt
|
Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not? Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 9:10 pm |
|
| Purestrain |
|
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
|
|
I have absolutely no objection to the concept of "Free Planetfall" but you guys realize that the Tau list is already puffed full of special rules, right?
One of JG's early versions was rejected by Jervis because of too many rules. It was trimmed back to just the basics that everyone really felt was needed to get the feel correct, but has since expanded considerably.
It might be better to think of ways to use existing rules and point values to get the desired feel rather than resorting to new mechanics.
_________________
Neal
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Ilushia
|
Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not? Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 9:48 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189
|
|
Something occured to me. The primary complaint about the Support Craft is that they're always seen/be seen, and thus pick up blast markers (and lower their init) too easily. Plus being able to be shot down from really long range... Making them Init 1 seems it'd help with this, but I'd suspect that the enemy could still break the 6 DC Manta quite easily, especially IG with their barrages, so I have a suggestion which doesn't require a massive rules change. Make Support Craft unattackable by BP weapons. The craft fly high over the battlefield, high enough that the arcing shots which BP weapons use just aren't likely to hit them. You could still fire on them directly with things which can (Like Basilisks) but it'd prevent early-game bombardments from breaking them on turn 1, and avoid the whole 'Use the ship to hit other units I can't see' bit. Not sure if it'd make them too good, but it'd be a very simple rule to implement.
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Xisor
|
Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not? Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 12:26 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:11 pm
Posts: 515
|
| Quote (Gotchaye @ 15 May 2006 (18:53)) | | Although, if the Manta gains a self-planetfall ability, how can we justify not giving the same ability to other space-capable ships? ?Thunderhawks function as bombers, so what stops them from doing the same thing the Manta does? |
The reason, as I mentioned earlier is that whilst Thunderhawks and Vampires can function in Space, they are still not[by the fluff] self-sufficient. Like Barracudas and Mantas, they are aerospace vehicles. Unlike Mantas, they are not *almost* true Starships the likes of which would recieve a Hit Point in BFG[Mantas are the largest thing that don't, and even then it's borderline!]. The Manta is also capable of doing a limited warp-dive. It's essentially a starship[unlike THawks and Vampires, which are very much ordinance] in everything but BFG and Epic Armageddon Rules.
They don't need starships because conceptually, we're saying, they *are* the starships.
Not only that, but it reinforces the combined arms feel of the Tau rather nicely.
Xisor
PS What specifically stops them is that they are simply not as capable as Mantas fluff-wise. Ruleswise in BFG there's no significant [to this] distinction, but the fluff clearly indicates that they are not the same.
_________________
"Number 6 calls to you
The Cylon Detector beckons
Your girlfriend is a toaster"
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Dobbsy
|
Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not? Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 12:28 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
 |
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia
|
|
I'm with Neal Hunt here. We have too many special rules creeping in lads. I'd prefer we playtest it with the initiative 1+ change first before adding self planetfall. If it's still lacking something then look at adding something in.
Personally, if we change anything I would prefer a change to the Support Craft rules. Having ground-based FF units on the ground hitting this thing in the atmosphere doesn't ring true to me (I keep seeing IG infantry FF it to death...). I'm tempted to ask for it to only be assaulted by skimmer/jump pack only. This way you could just use the basic rules for assault i.e Jumpackers etc could still CC it and skimmer FF it if they so chose.
My thinking here is it can still be shot to pieces, after all, from anywhere on the board. I would prefer a balance - you can get shot at from anywhere but can only be assaulted by skimmers or jumpackers.
Would this have a truer ring? I haven't obviously playtested it for flaws....
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
The_Real_Chris
|
Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not? Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 3:34 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London
|
| Quote (nealhunt @ 15 May 2006 (21:10)) | I have absolutely no objection to the concept of "Free Planetfall" but you guys realize that the Tau list is already puffed full of special rules, right?
One of JG's early versions was rejected by Jervis because of too many rules. *snip* |
I agree, the Tau list could do with a looking at the special rules again as there are a ot of them (yes I know Tactica, you pointed out that if you take GT rules and unit special rules and stuff into the equation it isn't that many  ).
But this could as has been suggested be written into the support craft rule, so no new special rule per say.
Make Support Craft unattackable by BP weapons. The craft fly high over the battlefield, high enough that the arcing shots which BP weapons use just aren't likely to hit them. You could still fire on them directly with things which can (Like Basilisks) but it'd prevent early-game bombardments from breaking them on turn 1, and avoid the whole 'Use the ship to hit other units I can't see' bit. Not sure if it'd make them too good, but it'd be a very simple rule to implement. |
Air bursts! Just think of those engines sucking up the HE! In BFG I think all the weapons are area effect to try and catch the little ships in the big space!
Also artillary is one of the few things that can shoot everything anyway, here it would be the strange situation of being able to shoot everything except the thing that everyone else can shoot!
My thinking here is it can still be shot to pieces, after all, from anywhere on the board. I would prefer a balance - you can get shot at from anywhere but can only be assaulted by skimmers or jumpackers. |
Thats a very big bost against armies like marines and especially Orks.
_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x
| Top |
|
|
?