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Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings
tneva82	Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:22 am
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 12:17 pm Posts: 606	Quote (Steele @ 12 April 2006 (10:09)) But do they deserve 2 Attacks? What supports it? Fluff? The chance to hit is worser with 5+ than 4+. Only the 2 attacks augment it statistically. But anyway at 8 Models, if we take it at 175 Points then each would be 21.8  Points. So at 25 Points they come to FW standard of 200 Points. If we take them to 30/35 Points they hit the Road with 240/280 Points - almost at Pathfinder Niveau with upgrade - are they worth that much? Cheers! Steele I didn't comment on that(I just noted that from purely point of view of effectivity 2 5+ attacks is better). OTOH they do carry THE meanest small arm around as the thing is THE only small arm that actually threatens for example space marines(comparison: Lasguns can't even really penetrate space marine armour so FF effect is more likely from those special weapons in squad rather than lasguns which simply bounce of the armour...And I'm not talking about 40k game mechanics but FLUFF. Marine armour is virtually impervious against pretty much all small arm weapons). That sounds pretty nasty FF weapon to me. Certainly they should be better at it than fire warriors. So either 4+ or 2 5+. Difference isn't much though. _________________ www.tneva.net
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clausewitz

Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:26 am

Brood Brother Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:02 pm Posts: 916 Location: Glasgow, Scotland

If the FF is reduced in favour of ranged attacks, then Vespids should benefit from this thinking too. This is perhaps the first decision to make regards the Vespids.  Do we boost ranged shooting and reduce assault power like the majority of Tau units or not? The Kroot and Gue'vesa are not changed in this way, so there is precedent in having the Alien Auxillia having normal "unadjusted" stats. What would people prefer/think is more appropriate.  An assault capable unit, or another short ranged AP platform (albeit a fast moving one)?

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Xisor	Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:54 am
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:11 pm Posts: 515	Folks, I'd make a second note that Vespids *are* regarded, from the fluff, as being alot more integrated to the 'Tau Way of Things' than Kroot or Humans are. They make this very clear in the codex. Very clear. I'd say vespids *should* benefit from Tau-ifying. On a second note, they should not benefit from a second fire fighting attack. In 40k 5 Vespids *CANNOT* kill more than 5 Space Marines in one round of shooting. There is simply no possibility, mechanically, that they could kill twice their number. Their weapon is single shot[IIRC]. EDIT: In terms of what I think is appropriate, they are, ideally, a 'cheap' upgrade that allows a decent bit of support to the formation they accompany. In this manner, a ranged attack *and* a firefighting ability is required if they are to do well amidst Tau formations. If they were not part of Tau cadres, this wouldn't be an issue, but the fluff severely indicates that they *would* operate as part of Tau formations. In light of 'Tau-ifying' them, I'd now vote FF5+(no extra attack) and AP4+. Xisor _________________ "Number 6 calls to you The Cylon Detector beckons Your girlfriend is a toaster"
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tneva82	Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:14 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 12:17 pm Posts: 606	Quote (Xisor @ 12 April 2006 (11:54)) On a second note, they should not benefit from a second fire fighting attack. In 40k 5 Vespids *CANNOT* kill more than 5 Space Marines in one round of shooting. There is simply no possibility, mechanically, that they could kill twice their number. Their weapon is single shot[IIRC]. Did you forget assault covers entire 6 turns of 40k in timeframe? 6 round of shooting more like it. Not 1. But I wouldn't base rules stricly from 40k anyway...Following it strictly leads to less well game than otherwise game could be. _________________ www.tneva.net
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ragnarok	Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:33 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm Posts: 2084 Location: Reading, England	I don't think that the Vespids should be tau-ified. Their waepons are only range 12", the same as pistols and shuriken weapons (which don't get ranged attacks).  So I'm finding it hard to see them having a ranged attack (since they don't have jet pack rules to jump into range). However I think that they should have a decent FF value and move 35cm.  This way I can see them being used as a reserves for when the cadre get assulted.  They'll get a 10cm countercharge move to bring their deadly guns to bare at short range. _________________ Tyranid air marshal
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Nerroth	Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:58 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:00 pm Posts: 573 Location: Canada	Well, Dark Reapers are a closer fit than most concerning weaponry, yet Reaper Launchers have more shots than Neutron Blasters do - so 1 shot in EA terms instead of two. Perhaps the leader Vespid could have its own unit (like a Gue'vesa'vre or Kroot Master Shaper) and can only be taken as part of a separate Stingwing formation? That way the Leader rule issue would not apply to Tau formations, as only regular Vespid stands can be added to Cadres. Gary _________________ Gue'senshi: The 1st Kleistian Grenadiers v7.3 pdf Human armed forces for the greater good.
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Tactica

Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:45 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241

Quote (clausewitz @ 12 April 2006 (05:26)) If the FF is reduced in favour of ranged attacks, then Vespids should benefit from this thinking too. This is perhaps the first decision to make regards the Vespids. ?Do we boost ranged shooting and reduce assault power like the majority of Tau units or not? I've sat silent on this for a page or so to hear what others thought. This question Cw (and Xisor) poses is really the crux of the matter right now. My gut feeling on page 1 is clear - its a 12" gun, how can it be a ranged attack? My initial concern on page 1 is also clear I think - the E:A Tau army would obviously be great in FF if we were to purely port over from 40K - but for other reasons, we are not going down that path. The list is working by NOT going down that path. So we have a design principle to avoid making the E:A Tau 'good' at FF or CC in E:A. The precidnet is to have artificially reduced FF stats and artificially increased ranges as a result. Xisor brings up a good point I had not considered on page 1 when making the above comments - fusion blasters. ?Our crisis suits have fusion blasters that are 12" range and which equate to 15cm guns. Someone else makse the comment that our E:A fusion blasters may take into account the 40K 'evasion' ability of the crisis jet pack and that the range is thus justified. A fair argument. However, the artificial range increase argument for the fusion blaster is also valid as its a key Tau anti-armor piece of gear. Furthermore, I consider things like 18" burst cannons which are also below the standard 24" range weapon or more before you get an E:A stat. All of our 18" range weapons are artificially bumped to E:A 15cm weapons - again to account for our artificial FF deficiency. Thus far, an abstraction which has proven to work to get us this far. So, with some addition thought on this topic in mind, I went back to the Tau Empires codex last night for some additional input. As Vespids do not fill a h-t-h combat role for the Tau 1) in core design fictional history or 2) in 40K developer's implimentation of the unit in 40k game play, I take notice of that. Knowing that all tau would be good in FF if we purely ported them from E:A - and knowing that we avoid doing that for good reasons - namely, those units are not supposed to be good in combat (Tau Perspective = that's what kroot are for!) I'm apprehensive ?about stepping over this established design principle and 'boundary' in E:A with any unit/formation that's not directly intended for combat in design fictional history or in 40K game play. The more important question on my mind is - how do we want the Tau ARMY in E:A to work, regardless of name of unit (Tau or Auxilia), if the unit/formation is not supposed to be good/excepitonal in combat? I think the vespids would probably be a FF4+ if they were strictly ported from 40K to E:A. There may even be an argument for 3+ if you consider the bonus for marked targets, their ability to give every infantry man in the unit a power armor eviserating weapon with a strength higher than a super human marines toughness, but all that aside, I think they would safely be a FF4+ if we were to port them over. So that means I do not want to see FF4+ on the Vespids. I also agree with Steele, 2 FF shots here is not the way we want to go as its another unnecessary E:A Engage enhancement that's not aligning with the E:A Tau army design principles. 2 regular shots at close range - well, maybe, but not right now either as better to play it safe and give us somewhere to start that going overboard from the get go. So I'm definitely on board with only 1 FF shot per unit and 1 regular shot per unit to start with. Following our E:A Tau design principles, I think I'm convinced that they NEED to be FF5+. Their potensy of weapon clearly makes them justification for a AP4+ quality shot. For reasons of wings vs technology, being naturally great at flying, being great at navigating terrain and dangerous terrain in flight, and due to them also being able to fleet of wing to gain further movement - I'm in full support of ragnarok's comment about them being 35cm movement - just as the swooping hawk eldar unit is. This just makes sense to me. Marine Toughness but IG armor in 40K means they are somewhere inbetween a 5+ and a 6+ save in E:A. They are supposed to be better armoured Orks essentially from a 40K defensive stand point but not as armored as Tau. So when also factoring their speed in flight, that puts them squarely on a 5+ armor value to me in E:A. Formation vs. Upgrade I've not formed a solid opinion on yet. I'd be happy to try 4 Unit Tau Upgrade and 8 Unit Formation that Hena (I think) suggested. As far as who gets the upgrade, I think Xisor's point is well met about the formation integrating with the Tau moreso even than the Kroot or human Auxilia - and both of those are heavily integrated. I could see them being an upgrade for either of the E:A Tau infantry Cadres (FW or Crisis). Points suggestions appear to be from the 25-35 point a Unit range but that was in context of 2 shots per stand in FF and a FF4+ value - which would make this formation very valuable to the way Tau play. Now, with only 1 shot per stand and that being relegated to 15cm range and the unit no longer filling a much desired speedy quality engagement role, 25 points as stand seems like a reasonable place to start. So in summary, I propose the following: Vespids Stingwings 1) ?CONTINGENT of 8 Units = ?200 points 2) ?FW & Crisis Cadres UPGRADE of 4 Units = ?+100 points Type ? ? ? ? ? ? Infantry Speed ? ? ? ? ? 35cm Armour ? ? ? ? ?5+ Close Combat 6+ Firefight ? ? ? ?5+ Weapon ? ? ? ? ? ? Range ?Firepower ?Notes Neutron Blasters ? ?15cm ? ? AP4+ ? ? ? ? ?-- Notes: Jump Packs Cheers, _________________ Rob

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Xisor	Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:42 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:11 pm Posts: 515	Tactica, That looks good to me. Solid reasoning as far as I can see, but it does rely on a few things folks may not be entirely keen on, though they can deal with that. I'd hazard a guess that 25/stand is quite fine, *but* I'm no good with unit costs in Epic yet. I'd be happy, for now, to start out from a position of 30 or 35pts. Xisor _________________ "Number 6 calls to you The Cylon Detector beckons Your girlfriend is a toaster"
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Tactica	Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:20 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Xisor, As 8 (formation) and 4 (upgrade) seemed like the agreed upon unit counts... that took me to points. @25 points / unit... 8 units = 200, and 4 units = 100 @30 points / unit... 8 units = 240, and 4 units = 120 @35 points / unit... 8 units = 280, and 4 units = 140 Frankly, I'm not sure if these Vespids will be worth 200 points in a stand alone formation. Too early to tell. They also may end up being the must-have bargain! Heh - don't know. Bat reps will tell us that. Also, the other point options didn't work with the unit counts... and they only got more expensive. Personal opinion - while looking at a 2700, 3000 and 3500 point list of my own, I was hard pressed to figure out something I wanted to cut for these even at the 200 points value. At the end of the day, they have to get really close to deliver an AP punch. Any shooting enemy could sustain fire back at them. Any assaulting enemy will be able to engage them. These are going to be the definition of one hit wonder - at best. The only value beyond land grab that they have is 50cm AP4+ effective range (single + fire) or 65cm AP5+ effective range (double move + fire). That assumes the opponent is not in cover. I'll be suprised if the opportunity to sustain fire happens 1 in 10 games. A player can get higher volumes of more effective AP fire out of the Tau list already. So to me, 25 points / unit seemed within the realm of reasonable considering. It was also conveniently an easy place to start for multiple reasons. Its just my suggestion though. If CS or public wants to use it, fine. If not - no biggy here cheers, _________________ Rob
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semajnollissor	Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:50 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:38 pm Posts: 1673 Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA	As a stand alone formation, this would be a realiable formation to use as a shoot-then-support unit (like the SM land speeder, except without the MW). I say reliable because it doesn't suffer from AT hits taking out its mobility. As a upgrade to FWs, what do these guys offer? A better move rate? More bodies on the ground? Seems like small potatoes.
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semajnollissor	Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:15 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:38 pm Posts: 1673 Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA	Quote (Hena @ 12 April 2006 (14:08)) Thats why I would have had them a FF4+. They then give out a small defensive role against assaults. But then they become the guys you attach to the FWs to give the FW formation a boost in FF ability. That really doesn't make much sense either, considering how good FW would be in FF if they were directly translated from 40k. (i.e. When you want to upgrade of a FW formation to make it better in FF, does adding vespid immediately spring to mind?) I think that even though the fluff says they're integrated, the practicalities of the situation almost dictate a separate formation.
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