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Spirit Stones more like Spirit Stones? |
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MC23
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Post subject: Spirit Stones more like Spirit Stones?  Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:15 am |
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First of all, let me tell those of you only seeking GT game balance you will not find anything useful here. Just drop Spirit Stones and you will be fine. No point adjustments or anything.
To those of you who remember when EPIC had all this great promise to be played in many different ways, you might find this interesting.
I've only had one mantra on EPIC as of late. "The best thing about EPIC is Blast markers. The worst thing about EPIC is Blast Markers." The game mechanic is simple but it only works on formations being able to deliver x hits and absorbing x hits is some roundabout fashion. Marines need ATSKNF to do this because of their size. Eldar being barely larger than Marines have either tried to rough it in the playtest days or fall back on Spirit Stones as they do now to manage the absorbing x hits.
While playing around with ways of doing this I went back to basics and asked myself, what if Spirit Stones worked like Spirit Stones. That means it captures the souls of the departed to be returned to Infinity Circuit. Now to make a concept like that to work I pondered, what if Eldar suffered 1 less Blast marker from removing casualites? They would still take Blast markers from being shot at. Careful wording to make sure WE's don't get to reduce it per DC taken but only at "death" could keep them roughly in line. Fire Prisms could take a hit and not automatically break. Yes points would have to be reviewed by this but maybe, just maybe Eldar would feel more like you were playing Eldar than with the current Spirit Stones and you could keep the name of the rule as well.
Who should try this? Anybody who wants to try something new, especially non GT games. Who shouldn't try this? Those people who are only interested in GT results, but they should have stopped reading this at the beginning when I told them what to do.
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Markconz
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Post subject: Spirit Stones more like Spirit Stones? Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:15 am |
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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
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Location: New Zealand
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| Quote (MC23 @ 10 April 2006 (23:15)) | While playing around with ways of doing this I went back to basics and asked myself, what if Spirit Stones worked like Spirit Stones. That means it captures the souls of the departed to be returned to Infinity Circuit. Now to make a concept like that to work I pondered, what if Eldar suffered 1 less Blast marker from removing casualites? They would still take Blast markers from being shot at. Careful wording to make sure WE's don't get to reduce it per DC taken but only at "death" could keep them roughly in line. Fire Prisms could take a hit and not automatically break. Yes points would have to be reviewed by this but maybe, just maybe Eldar would feel more like you were playing Eldar than with the current Spirit Stones and you could keep the name of the rule as well.
Who should try this? Anybody who wants to try something new, especially non GT games. Who shouldn't try this? Those people who are only interested in GT results, but they should have stopped reading this at the beginning when I told them what to do. |
To me this doesn't seem to be as characterful as your earlier proposition - the 'Eldar don't receive BM for coming under fire, just for casualties.' Ie Eldar care when you kill them, not when you miss... This current proposition seems to be the wrong way around to me (for a dying race). They care when they get shot at, but not so much when you kill them. However, I guess it is a more toned down effect in terms of actual gameplay. My initial impression of the earlier proposition was that it was too powerful.
So how would it be in terms of balance in a GT game? (just joking  )
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semajnollissor
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Post subject: Spirit Stones more like Spirit Stones? Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:27 am |
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Or you could similarly say that eldar aren't supressed by BMs. Unfortunately, that would probably be too powerful for the large formations, but it would be about right for the vehicle troupes.
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Spirit Stones more like Spirit Stones? Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:44 am |
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We play lots of non-GT and the problem is the same as people complain about in the GT scenario. Namely, Eldar are too tough and forgiving.
I'm not convinced that Eldar are in need of a serious BM management tool even in longer, non-GT games.
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semajnollissor
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Post subject: Spirit Stones more like Spirit Stones? Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:30 pm |
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Regarding MC's suggestion, how is it supposed to work, exactly? Is the idea that every time a number of units is lost, the eldar take one less BM than usual? I guess the best way to handle that is to place the normal number of BMs on the eldar unit (which may or may not break the formation) then remove one BM from the formation immediately after the conclusion of the action (during which the eldar formation took casualties).
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MC23
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Post subject: Spirit Stones more like Spirit Stones? Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:26 am |
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| Quote (semajnollissor @ 11 April 2006 (09:30)) | | Regarding MC's suggestion, how is it supposed to work, exactly? Is the idea that every time a number of units is lost, the eldar take one less BM than usual? I guess the best way to handle that is to place the normal number of BMs on the eldar unit (which may or may not break the formation) then remove one BM from the formation immediately after the conclusion of the action (during which the eldar formation took casualties). |
That was the intent. Thinking about it more I suspect this will still leave Eldar with more durability than they need. Formations of 3 and Gaurdian Warhost hordes make blanket rules difficult.
Looking back Eldar played fine in every phase of EPIC except during the End Phase. Those that saw the problem agreed on this while others were content with 4th turn wilt. Nothing was ever easily identified as the culprit. That stands true today.
Part of the trouble of a simple unified system is how different Eldar formations are affected by Blast markers. Warhosts didn't do better than other formations because of size but by how they work. They are Engagement forces and Blast markers do not suppress any units ability to perform in an Engagement. While they were burdened by carrying them around, it had little effect on battlefield performance. Eldar tanks were a nother matter. Fire Prisms only had 3 to a formation and because of range and weapon ability they have always been prime targets of opponents. Falcons suffered because their great firepower is quickly suppressed by Blast markers. EoV had RA and 3DC and Titans can take a huge battering.
But the problem has never been just tanks. Eldar Hosts with no Leader were still expected to always carry a Blast marker with them. It's playable but does breed jealousy. Leader as such also don't really fit Eldar background as well, expecially in places where demand for one might be higher.
An extra floating Blast marker removal was the only thing that ever solved this problem for me. Eldar being psychic seers never gave me a problem with that type of solution (it actually made me happier to see that part of Eldar have an effect on the game). How many should be used and what should determine how you get that that many was never clearly explored. Spirit Stones was introduced as a blanket solution and the rest is history.
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