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[I]Personal Observations about the Tyranid List.
tneva82	Post subject: [I]Personal Observations about the Tyranid List. Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:09 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 12:17 pm Posts: 606	Quote (mchiao @ 22 Mar. 2006 (14:59)) Dont mean to be an A-hole but I really dont see the Tyranids need anything because they are already powerful enough.  I think with the BM, it would give the opponent more room to position its line (for better or worse). Just my 2 pennies It would be army with lots of 15cm-20cm move no shooting units with no real help to assaults then. Oh and no transports to speak off. Heck orks could then relatively easily match them in assaults(especially with help of grots) and have better shooting to boot. IG would have jolly good time shooting and breaking them. Eldars would punch through big big holes in assaults and shoot the crap out of them. Basicly tyranid main strenght would be gone... Oh and they still would have worser effects to failed activations and would fail them easier as well. Only thing that would give them edge then would be spawning. Is that really enough? Not really. _________________ www.tneva.net
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Morg	Post subject: [I]Personal Observations about the Tyranid List. Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:53 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:33 pm Posts: 193 Location: Ireland	Quote (tneva82 @ 22 Mar. 2006 (15:09)) [quote="mchiao,22 Mar. 2006 (14:59)"] Only thing that would give them edge then would be spawning. Is that really enough? Not really. Quote (mchiao @ 22 Mar. 2006 (14:59)) Only thing that would give them edge then would be spawning. Is that really enough? Not really. Well, at least not with the way spawning is handled at the moment. I think spawning should be improved drastically. _________________ Generosity rules where 6mm soldiers are concerned. -- Looking for players near Dublin - get in touch with me!
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nealhunt	Post subject: [I]Personal Observations about the Tyranid List. Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:04 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	Quote (mchiao @ 22 Mar. 2006 (14:50)) The other thing that I noticed is that I only get to move in the very first turn.  After that, I'm pretty much on sustain fire trying to fend off the swarms.  Sustaining fire against Nids until they assault is a bad idea. You have to move to prevent/reduce assaults.  If the Nids are only in range to FF, then you can move out of engage range altogether, fire, and get another turn to fire again.  If they are in range to CC, you can move to FF-only range, fire, and still stand a much better chance in the assault. Either way, you're going to be better off than if you sit still and Sustain Fire in most cases - inflicting more total casualties and taking fewer.  Pretty much the only time to stand your ground is if you have no place left to run or if you are protecting some vulnerable asset that is worth the sacrifice. _________________ Neal
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mchiao	Post subject: [I]Personal Observations about the Tyranid List. Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:21 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:34 pm Posts: 8	Quote (nealhunt @ 22 Mar. 2006 (12:04)) Either way, you're going to be better off than if you sit still and Sustain Fire in most cases - inflicting more total casualties and taking fewer.  Pretty much the only time to stand your ground is if you have no place left to run or if you are protecting some vulnerable asset that is worth the sacrifice. We were playing on a 6' by 6' table. Turn 1, I doubled my troops to the 1st object marker (closest one) and started shooting at the nids that teleported and got spawned. Turn 2, the nids are within my range (45cm) and if I move and shoot, I would be out of range.  Every nid formation made the activation roll. Turn 3, they are within the assault range and the sad thing is that I didn't win the initiative.  The nids charged and I was facing a +6 difference in 1 battle (should've been +8, forgot to add 2 other +1).  Needless to say, the Squat got slaughtered. Since we are using the tournament rule, I didn't see the point of falling back.  Instead, I shoot and then waited for the nids to charge so my formation gets additional action by being charged. If the game has 'unlimited' turn, I can see falling back and shoot which would buy more time and tilt the scale in favor of the Sqaut.  In 3 turns, with the objective marker + tournament rule, Tyranids is really mindless to play. Just my 2 pennies
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nealhunt	Post subject: [I]Personal Observations about the Tyranid List. Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:52 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	Turn 2, the nids are within my range (45cm) and if I move and shoot, I would be out of range.  Every nid formation made the activation roll. Turn 3, they are within the assault range and the sad thing is that I didn't win the initiative. Ah.  That makes perfect sense.  I got the impression from your post that it was an intentional tactic on your part. _________________ Neal

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mchiao

Post subject: [I]Personal Observations about the Tyranid List. Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:19 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:34 pm Posts: 8

Quote (nealhunt @ 22 Mar. 2006 (14:52)) Turn 2, the nids are within my range (45cm) and if I move and shoot, I would be out of range.  Every nid formation made the activation roll. Turn 3, they are within the assault range and the sad thing is that I didn't win the initiative. Ah.  That makes perfect sense.  I got the impression from your post that it was an intentional tactic on your part. Even then, I think you need to draw a line in the sand at some point.

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Stone-Foxx	Post subject: [I]Personal Observations about the Tyranid List. Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:08 am
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:28 am Posts: 13	I'm only going to go into this one more time. I have suggested a 'change' to the Unstoppable rule. That's a 'change', mind you. Let's say that one more time so it sinks in: Change. That doesn?t mean destruction, ruining, or robbing. The change would leave the 2 most important parts of the rule: ignore Broken & Suppressed. It would eliminate the 'free' +1 (and usually +2) CR modifier, and it would mean you might have to deal with a -1 modifier to Initiative Tests. Basically that would mean the Swarms would have two ?settings?; Blast Markers or no Blast Markers?how many they have wouldn?t generally matter. I also suggested to keep BMs from piling up on them, that all Tyranids remove all Blast Markers during the Rally phase. Call it the ?Can?t Keep a Good Bug Down? rule. I really don't see where that 'completely destroys' or 'totally ruins' the Unstoppable rule. I've stated repeatedly that I think the Tyranids Unstoppable is very bug-ish, and the 'idea' is good. I'm trying to change (there's that word again) it to work more fairly... Hell, if anyone felt like really discussing it (not arguing against it from the moment it?s uttered), I?d consider ignoring them for Initiative Tests as well; so far nobody?s even seems willing to consider it. As far as the ?I don?t care? remark, I apologize. I could give an excuse for saying it, but it would only be that?an excuse. I shouldn?t have said it, end of story. I do feel frustrated with the remark that triggered it. If I took an Eldar force of only Guardians (or any army list built to play in too specific a way) and complained about it and all of its problems, you?d be frustrated with me as well, and probably say a lot worse. If I used that as an excuse to have extra rules to make that type of army work for me, you?d think I was deranged (and you?d be right). You?d probably say it was my fault for building a ?one-trick pony? army (and you?d be right). If you don?t take units to fill gaps in your army and then complain about it, I probably won?t be moved?WEs too weak, take screening (100 point) WEs. Hard to put blast markers on enemy formations, try a few dedicated shooting formations or artillery. This would be like me using only Swooping Hawks, Guardians, Farseers, Dire Avengers, Howling Banshees, Jetbikes, Shinning Spears, Warp Spiders, and a couple of Heavy Weapon Platforms and complaining that I only have a few shooting units and they only have a range of 30cm?change the rules so it works. It?s ludicrous, and I think it?s just like some of the poor arguments I?m seeing. Mchiao, I appreciate you trying to support me, but we are not on the same page! I don?t blatantly want to rob rules wholesale from the Tyranids and hamstring them from the get-go (as Tneva82 seems to think is my motive). I want to change the rules fairly for Tyranids as well as their opponents. I said it before (and I do mean it); I want to see a good (challenging and fun to play against) Tyranid Army list. I think that at the moment it is very far from that. I?d rather change the rules that are there to be a good bit more balanced, while retaining the Tyranid ?feel?. To me, Unstoppable is at the crux of this dilemma. Although the idea is good, the execution is extremely poor. It really wouldn?t take too much to fix it. I?ve suggested a couple of ideas. Unfortunately, instead of considering them or offering counter suggestion, they are generally refused and ignored out of hand; Tyranid players seeming to be real defensive on the whole issue. If there was any real discussion about what ?could? or ?might? be done, I think I?d be found to be quite pliable with my ideas. If anyone were really willing to discuss the possibilities, there might be a much better idea generated from the group than any single person could put forth on their own. As far as the War Engine continuing debate, I just don't understand...continuously you keep trying to point out the disadvantages of Tyranid WEs, and continually I state who they have benefits to balance out any perceived lack of ability. The 1/32nd chance of loosing a WE to the first shot is just that...a 1/32nd chance... Other WEs have their own problems, and most non-titan WEs are automatically destroyed with the first critical hit...should they all be given Regenerate, Void Shields, etc.? No. I have said, and still firmly believe (even more resolutely after hearing what I feel are very poor arguments on how inferior they are) that they are under-priced. I also say this is a far distant second consideration to the problem with Unstoppable. I?ve heard arguments about how bad it is if Tyranids miss an activation, I?ve heard how hard it is for them to put Blast Markers on enemy formations, I?ve heard how Spawning is a waste of a unit?s action, I?ve heard how some people are totally happy with the Tyranid?s special rules, and I?ve even heard how some wish the Tyranids had yet a bit more rules to take care of the few remaining ?problems?. I don?t agree. Missing an activation is bad for any army, and lots of formations suffer as much from it as Tyranids. Most armies don?t have the never-modified-by-blast-markers Initiative of 2+, but still manage to deal with it. I don?t feel the Tyranid ?deserve? that little bonus from the Unstoppable rule. Not being able to put blast markers on enemy formations? If you are building a lop-sided army list with almost no shooting, and can?t manage it, I don?t know what to say. The people I play against never seem to have problems with it. The Tyranid players in the battle reports I?ve read, seem to be able to do it easily enough. Spawning being a waste of an Activation? It?s a powerful option, used or not. And who says you have to build your army to cause a unit to stand still while it Spawns. I see how that as the whole damn point of the Synapse Nodes. They Spawn for the other Swarms and then send them marching off to join the Swarms that need it. Some people are happy with the rules the way they are? I recognize that. I?d just like them to notice others aren?t. As far as some of the other things some people would like to see the Tyranids having (such as Initiative 0+, cheaper units, cheaper synapse, longer shooting range, etc.), I shudder at the thought?it smacks of Munchkinism. It oozes with it? Play-testing of this list (or any list) is key. How the play-testing should be done is the issue. When play-testing anything, I feel the person using it should try to play against the spirit of the list and tweak it as unfairly as possible (i.e. try to take it to the extremes); not for the purpose of trouncing the opponent, but for the purpose of finding out what is too powerful?how it can be abused. When doing this, the opposing army should be a standard list that you might expect to see at a tournament. An army meant to take on all comers. Playing against an army specifically designed to take apart the test army in question isn?t a good indication of how well that army works. And an army list that is fair if the opponent takes an army list different than normal isn?t balanced. The opponent having to use different strategy or tactics with his normal army list is fine; having to build an army list different than normal to handle the test army isn?t. I understand the arguments against play-testing this way. Many people only get so many games in a certain period of time, and would rather have fun games than play-test games. Some people don?t have opponents with the army in question. Some people have no interest in the army in question. Etc., etc. I understand this. If I can find people who are serious about building a really good army list, I?m willing to try. Until my recent experience with Tyranids, I use most of the excuses listed above for reasons why I didn?t play-test the army lists in development. Now I feel it?s almost a responsibility. I stated that I have 2 small groups of opponents to play against, and there happens to be an abundance of Tyranid players. I?m going to encourage people to use developmental army lists for play-testing. Hell?we can use ?counts as? for the models. One of the players in one group expressed interest in Tau. I?m going to encourage?no, demand that he start playing the list. I?ve heard about the ATML(?) list. No idea what it is, but I?m going to find out and start testing it?as long as there are at least a few people who have a say in the army list development who are serious about building the best list that we can; people who are at least open to ideas?even if they are considered or tried and then discarded. As I said before, ?if you can?t beat them, join them?. I?m going to start using the Tyranid list with my Eldar as ?counts as? units. I?m going to try abusing the list. If anyone is willing to listen to the problems, I?ll post them. Then maybe we can figure out how to fix them. If nobody is willing to even consider that there might be problems, I?ll just be using it in the spirit of the designers and the people who refuse to even consider?I?ll use it to ruthlessly crush my opponents in the most ?competitive? manner possible. StoneFoxx (Damn, I'm long-winded...sorry. Just trying to make sure I'm completely understood.) _________________ It is not enough that Tyranids must succeed, all others must fail. - The Hive Mind
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Jaldon

Post subject: [I]Personal Observations about the Tyranid List. Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:56 am

Brood Brother Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:38 am Posts: 720 Location: Utah, pick a Pacific Island the other half of the year.

Stone-Foxx Get used to disappointment as the Unstoppable rule isn't going to change no matter how much you say you feel it is beardy, unfair, etc......... Why, because after a ton of games using the rule not a single playtester in my entire group in over two years of using the rule has had a single complaint about its use, nor do they feel they have any trouble overcoming the advantages the rule grants the Nids. Your posts make it sound as if we had come to this conclusion on a lark after having a few beers in the pub! "Jaldon, I would urge you to try playing against your army list, and against players who are trying to abuse it. I would submit that it's the only way to make a fair rule or army list. I always try to consider playing against any suggestion I make. It keeps me from trying to make things 'my way' instead of fair. I've suggested a few rules on the SG board that would generally work against me. People told me their thoughts, and I dropped it since they didn't see it as fair. Maybe look at some of these battle reports that are so lopsided, and get an opponent familiar with Tyranids to use that force in that manner against you. See how you fare. Try making the recreation of those battles a little less lopsided. Then you'd be on the road to making a balanced list. Playing with the army list doesn't give you the best perspective of how the list if working. StoneFoxx " You admit that you have had only a few games against the Nids, and then claim that after two battles you should be experienced enough to KNOW whether the rule works or not. Sorry but as the Nid AC I am not going to expend valuable time discussing a rule that not only works but is at the very heart of the Nid list as the BIG BOSS JJ has set for it. I have too many other problems to work on to get the Nid list back on line to be wasting time on an something I don't myself feel is a problem after a couple of YEARS playtesting it. Nid opponents here have little trouble overcoming Unstoppable, it takes tactics and a bit of fore thought to accomplish, but easily done once one gets the hang of it. Oh, yea it does take more the two games to get the feel for any army in the Epic-A universe, my best estimate puts it at around five to ten depending on how radical its rules are (How many special rules it has) To tell me that maybe I should 'play against' my own list is a maximum insult, maybe you should consider what you say before you put your own foot in your own mouth. Epicomms and the old SG forum are just littered with the numerous batreps that I have put up, including some involving Tyranids. So YES I do play with against the list every week except this last weekend because I was sick. And IF you would have done some reading of the other posts on this forum you would SEE that I DO playtest some of the other issues that have been brought up by other players, and DO Min-Max the Nid list. But as you haven't you wouldn't know any of this would you........ Maybe you should put in more time then two games before claiming a list or rule is broken so that YOU get a better feel for whether it is or isn't. In any case I am tired of your insults, and lack of doing your own homework, before accusing someone of not knowing how to do their job. AC Ruling Unstoppable IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE it isn't broken, and JJ wants to to stay AS IS. Issue Closed Until After Spawning Fixed Jaldon _________________ Brave sir Robin, when danger reared its ugly head he bravely turned his tail and fled, Brave sir Robin.

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tneva82

Post subject: [I]Personal Observations about the Tyranid List. Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:39 am

Brood Brother Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 12:17 pm Posts: 606

Quote (Stone-Foxx @ 23 Mar. 2006 (02:08)) Hard to put blast markers on enemy formations, try a few dedicated shooting formations or artillery. With bug options not exactly workable idea...That's like trying to make eldar guardians a CC troops...With their CC6+...Or like trying to make artirelly army out of orks...Or siege masters masters of speed... Have you read goal Jervis stated? That each army should have it's character. Shooting isn't SUPPOSED to be strong point in tyranid army and as a result their shooting support is little to start with and rightly so. It's balancing factor in the army precicely because they have goodies to make them good in assaults. Specifically for example unstoppable rule. Without it orks could easily match them in assaults and get better shooting while they are at it. Oh and match them in numbers to boot. What's left? Oh orks also would be better in activation system as well... Yes the unstoppable is good rule but it's also needed to give tyranids that something they need. Otherwise they have just swarm of troops. Okay nothing bad in itself but they aren't only ones who can have swarm of troops. Orks and IG for starters. Both can match numbers, both can match in assault(if there were no unstoppable) and both can outshoot them. Eldars could cause all kind of funny things with assaults without help of unstoppable(army that can remove dozens of stands in single assault ain't that bad in assault either). I have said, and still firmly believe (even more resolutely after hearing what I feel are very poor arguments on how inferior they are) that they are under-priced.

LOL! You have really funny world where you live where units with worser abilities shouldn't cost less.

Missing an activation is bad for any army, and lots of formations suffer as much from it as Tyranids.

No ARMY suffers as much as tyranids though. And this is the crux you don't seem to understand. We aren't comparing units. We are comparing ARMIES. So what if formation of striking scorpions might suffer just as much from failed activation? That's just one formation. Not entire army. For tyranids every single formation is basicly useless after failed action. Even for orks failed activation doesn't force formation to simply lumber forward uselessly.

Most armies don?t have the never-modified-by-blast-markers Initiative of 2+,

Most armies don't suffer so much from failed activation roll and those formations who do often have initiave 1+...

Not being able to put blast markers on enemy formations? If you are building a lop-sided army list with almost no shooting, and can?t manage it, I don?t know what to say.

Tyranid list is like that for a default! Hello? Have you forgotten that armies should be characterfull instead of generic mass where eldars feel practically same as IG or tyranids? Tyranids aren't SUPPOSED to be shooty army and the list reflects that. Maybe you want 10 armies who all feel alike but me I take 10 unique feeling list any day.

Spawning being a waste of an Activation? It?s a powerful option, used or not.

But removes option to assault which is what tyranids are mainly interested at doing. Because that is pretty much only way for them to do any serious casualties.

I?d just like them to notice others aren?t.

There are always people who wants to cripple other armies instead of devising ways to beat them...