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Phantom / Warlock - worth it?
Tactica
 Post subject: Phantom / Warlock - worth it?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:33 am 
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Forget the fact that the reverents are a bargain. I'm just not seeing that many people play the Phantoms and although I see those, I never hear about somebody taking the Warlock.

1.  Do you use the Phantom / Warlock Titans?

2.  How often?

3.  Efficiency and effectiveness as the primary considerations - are the phantom and Warlock titans worth their points to the Biel-Tan Eldar list?

4.  Why or why not?

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tneva82
 Post subject: Phantom / Warlock - worth it?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:34 am 
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Quote (Tactica @ 10 Mar. 2006 (06:33))
Forget the fact that the reverents are a bargain. I'm just not seeing that many people play the Phantoms and although I see those, I never hear about somebody taking the Warlock.

1.  Do you use the Phantom / Warlock Titans?

2.  How often?

3.  Efficiency and effectiveness as the primary considerations - are the phantom and Warlock titans worth their points to the Biel-Tan Eldar list?

4.  Why or why not?

1: Phaton yes, Warlock no(no model, no use)
2: In 3k not so often, 3.5k+ and it's more stable use.
3: Phanton? IMO yes.
4: Fast, nice pulse and that lovely fist. Not easiest thing to use but nothing like assisting multiple FF's against orks at once. And is tough enough it can actually survive it :D

Can't comment on warlock since I haven't got around buying model for it.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Phantom / Warlock - worth it?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:27 pm 
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I see phantoms a lot, for their survivability and TK shots (death on legs to tanks).

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Phantom / Warlock - worth it?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:32 pm 
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I see Phantoms occasionally, largely because the main Eldar player around here has sworn off Revenants for balance concerns.

They are fast, tough, and can be wicked in assaults.  I've made the mistake of trying to engage one with a Speed Freek army and paid a suitable price for it.

They are the ultimate in the "broken charge" titans because they are so fast.

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yme-loc
 Post subject: Phantom / Warlock - worth it?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:34 pm 
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Most games are 3K or less and so you tend not to see that many of the larger titans (of any race). This is compounded in the eldar list by how good revenants are as well as to a lesser extent the flexibility provided by the EoV's, once either of these options is taken its pretty hard to fit a phantom into any eldar list under 3.5K

Phantoms are certainly worth their points cost, warlocks are probably a little overpriced points wise but still ok.

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Tactica
 Post subject: Phantom / Warlock - worth it?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:44 pm 
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Ok,

So what I'm hearing/reading is...

Phantoms really come into play at 3.5K+ but they are worth their points and can be effectively used in the main list. That's good to know.

Phantoms are also a good alternative to the Reverants (if my opponents get ticked off at me - LOL.)

Warlocks are the least efficient/effective for their points but are usable at higher point games. As there are better bargins for the points, more damage and activation potential by taking smaller formations, and the Warlock only fits in big games - most aren't really playing the Warlock Titan.

This last bit is a shame. You'd think the Ulthwe would at least have this guy in their list and be all over its use... hmm...

OK, there's 2 phantoms in the army I recently purchased. I was trying to see if there was a reason for me to purchase the Warlock. It doesn't sound like there is.

Fair enough, I'll hold off on the Warlock. For the limited amount of use I'll get out of it - I may just proxy 1 phantom for a warlock when needed.

Cheers for the feedback gents,

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semajnollissor
 Post subject: Phantom / Warlock - worth it?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 6:24 pm 
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Well, Warlocks tend to be less flexible, not necessarily less effective. Warlocks are awesome if you can get them in a position to lend support to multiple assaults - especially when armed with a P-fist. It's just that a Phantom with a p-fist is nearly as good, and it can be used in other roles more effectively than a Warlock can.

So, if you are used to playing in a way that uses the warlock in the way that is best for it, the warlock may work fine for you.
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Gotchaye
 Post subject: Phantom / Warlock - worth it?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:30 pm 
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While you said to forget the Revenants, I need to use them to establish some benchmarks.

My beef with the Phantom is that it's not better at anything than two Revenants are.  I imagine that I'd take the Revs over the Phantom even if they were 750 for the pair, though I'd more likely not take either.  The Phantom's only advantage is range, and given that the Revenants, with a single, terrain-ignoring move, can completely negate that advantage and then some, it's not much of one.  Against 4+ RA, they're offensively equivalent.  Against 5+ RA, the Revs are 33% more effective.  Against anything without RA, the Revs are twice as good.  Against Tau deflectors, the Revs are an additional 33% more effective.  Granted, I haven't played around with the powerfist, but I imagine that I'd rather have the Pulsar.

Defensively, the RA on the Phantom is nice, I guess, but not incredibly valuable.  Additionally, a single critical hit completely ruins it, whereas the Revs can at least put the other team member in the lead.  Yeah, you can suppress a Rev, whereas the Phantom would be unaffected by 3 BMs, but that just doesn't seem a huge bonus.  My half-suppressed Rev formation is still just as effective against anything without RA, and is only slightly less effective against everything but 4+ RA.

I just don't think the Phantom's worth it, as I would rather have 2 Revs, and since I wouldn't pay 750 for 2 Revs.
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Markconz
 Post subject: Phantom / Warlock - worth it?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:19 pm 
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Is it possible that people underestimate the usefulness of the range advantage on the phantoms?  I like the phantom compared to revenants for the following reasons:

You can pick off targets right at the back of the enemy forces.
You can used sustained fire more often.
You can hit the enemy without them hitting you.

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Tactica
 Post subject: Phantom / Warlock - worth it?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:45 am 
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Gotchaye,

I only said forget Revenants because I had an agenda here. I was looking for feedback to justify my purchasing just Revenants or Revenants and Warlock.

I placed the order today. I already have 2 Phantoms on the way from an army I just picked up.

However, I could see ways on paper that the Phantom's worked, but I've yet to encounter one in combat or field one when I was fielding my buddies army. I always chose the Revenants if I was going to field any Eldar Titans.

I like enough in the Eldar list that I don't think they 'need' the Revenants by any stretch.

As I had heard about others using the Phantom and looking at the stats, I think they have a role different to the Renenants, I didn't know if the price justified it to make it efficient.

So, without posting my beliefs, I wanted to know what others thought.

If I'm looking for a mobile firing platform - there's no question, the Revenants are a darn good buy. I'm pretty sure they should be 700 for the 2 of them, not 650 - I thought that before owning the army, and even now owning the army and just buying the models from GW today - I still think that... but that's a different point.

My point here was not to debate the revenents - like I said, I had an alterrior economical impact motive. ;)

Markconz,


You can pick off targets right at the back of the enemy forces.
You can used sustained fire more often.
You can hit the enemy without them hitting you.


You hit the nail on the head, I think you are trading off some of the Revenant's closer ranged FP for additional support role protection and possibly higher probability yield on the to hit rolls. It definitely has the potential to serve as an artillery piece of sorts as its primary role. Well - on paper anyway.

Right now, I just don't get the feel for the Warlock's niche... though I will take semaj. comments into consideration.

Cheers,




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Gotchaye
 Post subject: Phantom / Warlock - worth it?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 1:06 am 
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Ah, my apologies.  I thought it was also a discussion on whether or not Phantom's were worth it, and I was expressing the opinion that they're not.  The Revenant comparison was there for the sake of having something to compare with, as many more people use them and have played against them.

If they're already on the way, though, then enjoy.  I'd use a Warlock for the sheer cool factor, regardless of other factors.
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Markconz
 Post subject: Phantom / Warlock - worth it?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 1:53 am 
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I think the Warlock has a role - but like the phantom, the typical tournament points level don't allow best expression of it.  


@Tactica: the last game I played showed one situation where the phantom did very well. The main guard position was behind and in a forest. An Artillery company and two batteries, well protected by two expanded infantry companies and Hydras. Revenants, Aircraft, Engines of Vaul and most other eldar units would have been badly hurt trying to attack this position (just the overwatch from the guardsmen would probably have stopped revenants). FirePrisms would have been no1 target for the guard arty. As it was the phantom could quickly flank the line and pick off the valuable arty by turn two (most of the arty drove away rather than lining up for a turkey shoot - but at least that meant it couldn't fire at me).

Scorpions could have attempted the same manoeuver but they are more vulnerable to shadowswords and arty, and would have to get dangerously close in any case. Void spinners could perhaps have done the same job, but they are more vulnerable to aircraft and counterbattery fire (plus not all eldar get them anyway). Also EOV are 2+ Initiative rather than the pahtoms lovely 1+ (I don't know about you - but after using orks for ages (and doubling or engaging on 1+) the Eldar initiative can be a real headache!).

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Tactica
 Post subject: Phantom / Warlock - worth it?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 7:21 am 
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Quote (Gotchaye @ 10 Mar. 2006 (18:06))
Ah, my apologies. ?I thought it was also a discussion on whether or not Phantom's were worth it, and I was expressing the opinion that they're not. ?The Revenant comparison was there for the sake of having something to compare with, as many more people use them and have played against them.

If they're already on the way, though, then enjoy. ?I'd use a Warlock for the sheer cool factor, regardless of other factors.

No appoligy necessary - your input was very much appreciated!

Yes - definitely a poll of sorts to see if the Phantom was worth it.

Considering the Revenant formation as a comparison - I think most if not all would say the Revenant is the better choice hands down. So I agree with you there at face value.

I wanted to remove the Revenant from the equation because, well - I guess my feeling is that in time, the Revenant is probably going to get revised in points a bit.

So I was more interested in whether the Phantom and Warlock would be worth it if the Revenant was not a factor. Basically - as units unto themselves, are they worth it.

The Phantom's are already on the way as part of the base army that I bought of ebay. I went ahead and ordered 2 Revenants today because I absolutely love the models - and the rules aren't too shabby either if I'm looking for an aggressive list.

When it comes too cool factor, I think I have to go with Vampire, Revenants, and EoV from "they just look cool" stand point.

:)

Thanks for the input Gotchaye,

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Tactica
 Post subject: Phantom / Warlock - worth it?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 7:33 am 
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Quote (Markconz @ 10 Mar. 2006 (18:53))
I think the Warlock has a role - but like the phantom, the typical tournament points level don't allow best expression of it. ?


@Tactica: the last game I played showed one situation where the phantom did very well. The main guard position was behind and in a forest. An Artillery company and two batteries, well protected by two expanded infantry companies and Hydras. Revenants, Aircraft, Engines of Vaul and most other eldar units would have been badly hurt trying to attack this position (just the overwatch from the guardsmen would probably have stopped revenants). FirePrisms would have been no1 target for the guard arty. As it was the phantom could quickly flank the line and pick off the valuable arty by turn two (most of the arty drove away rather than lining up for a turkey shoot - but at least that meant it couldn't fire at me).

Scorpions could have attempted the same manoeuver but they are more vulnerable to shadowswords and arty, and would have to get dangerously close in any case. Void spinners could perhaps have done the same job, but they are more vulnerable to aircraft and counterbattery fire (plus not all eldar get them anyway). Also EOV are 2+ Initiative rather than the pahtoms lovely 1+ (I don't know about you - but after using orks for ages (and doubling or engaging on 1+) the Eldar initiative can be a real headache!).

Markconz,

I play tau and IG mainly in epic - a little BL on occasion. I've borrowed friends armies on numerous occasions to field the Eldar and Ork armies. I know all about 2+ init and BM management issues.

The eldar don't know how good they got it by comparison! I'm a big fan of the 1+ init on the titans and think it makes sense in general.

It sounds like you make a very good use out of that Phantom. I think the long range support can be very valuable.

I can't discount that fist though. That thing is pretty sick. My other two main armys don't fight h-t-h so well, Eldar by comparison are a god send! I think I'm going to have to get a little cavelier a time or two with my Phantoms, just to see how they deal with the pressure.

Do you guys that take the phantom typically go 1 fist and 1 pulsar or 2 pulsars?

Cheers,

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tneva82
 Post subject: Phantom / Warlock - worth it?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 1:05 pm 
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Fist. Originally I thought 2 pulsars would be way to go but after game where phantom and his fist rampaged through ork center, assaulting and providing fire power at will, and have similar results appear in other games(though now atleast orks start to be bit more vary of that high speed titan of death bringing) I have fell in love with that fist option.

Ability to bring out lots of accurate FF support and live to tell the tale DOES have it's advantages :D And with it's high speed and eldar special rules it can easily appear in several FF's per turn.

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