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4 aces? Batrep

The_Real_Chris

Post subject: 4 aces? Batrep

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:15 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London

I think it best for TS discussion to go in the thread rather than be part here and part there, questions on game here though would be understandable!

Inspired by others efforts I'm attempting to finsh my batreps, so here is the first (I've stayed up all night

).

500pts Supreme Commander
050pts Hydra
Free Commissar
650pts Leman Russ Company
200pts Leman Russ Detachment
050pts Hydra
Free Commissar (in Vanquisher)
250pts Warhound Titan
Free Commissar
250pts Warhound Titan
200pts Shadowsword
Free Commissar
200pts Shadowsword
500pts 2 Baneblades, 1 Shadowsword
Free Commissar (in shadowsword)
150pts Rough Riders
Free Commissar
Not at all my sort of army, even the units here would get a rearranging with all the shadowswords in the same company. And where are my thunderbolts?

900 4 TS
100 1 Orca
700 4 Pathfinders
375 1 Hammerhead Ion formation
400 1 Hammerhead Ion formation with Networked Drones
350 1 Crisis formation, with Supreme Commander
175 1 Gue?vesa Auxiliary Company

So, a quick bat rep later.....
I tried taking a photo of the game, largely because it is so bloody funny. In my house in BD there is not a single model (they went back to the UK at Christmas to avoid the terror of a move when I wasn't here and there was no room to bring them back). And I discovered only 3D6 (my word).
So small onions got to be tanks, chilies and small runner beans and the like were infantry strips, some counters, pretend money and stuff were stolen from my daughter and put to good use.
Unfortunately I was using a glass table to play on and weird reflections and stuff seem to have messed it up somewhat. As I haven't managed to download gimp yet image manipulation is limited to whatever is on this UN laptop, and they pay expensive consultants to distort the truth

However this laptop (a tablet) around did allow me to take extensive notes which are in effect this bat rep written out into good(ish) English.

Some proviso's
My opponent has only played a handful of Epic games. This did lead to me giving 'tactical pointers' during the game so this could have influenced the result. Also the IG list in question was designed for the WPS CC and so only the published lists were in evidence. Saying that Chris (the chap who won the tourney) did I believe beat an Ork force with 20 fighter bombers in it. If you accept that the Tau list makes the air game more powerful than it is then I would imagine all the tourney lists would switch to at least my level of flak (about 400 points at 2700) if not Tactica's and co.
I did insist on a reading of the 5 aces batreps first though!
Another aspect is the planes survivability isn't tested as it is operating in a near to ideal environment ? next to no flak and lots of armour targets (the best is undoubtedly against space marines with their high cost units and poor flak).

I took the Guard.

The battlefield was a table 42 inches wide, so deployment zones were cut down (but with some leeway given for large units so there wasn't a strongly defined line), it was 7 feet at its longest point, but had curved ends so we put a cut off point on it meaning it was more like 5 1/2 feet.

Terrain was mostly books (hills) with a few items of my daughters clothing as wooded areas (no, no comments please they?re proxies not a swipe at the washing machine). For simplicity it was from left to right, hill, wood, hill, wood, hill on both sides of table, though obviously not in a straight line!

Objectives
Both blitz's opposite each other. Both objectives on Tau side close to blitz, both objectives on Imperials side on either end of table.

Deployment
The Guard had no garrisons. The roughriders in the center behind the hill had the leman russ on one side (Tau right) and mech on the other. The Superheavy company were next to the mech. Individual shadowswords were angled for potential shots in fire corridors, warhounds next to russ poised to rush forward.

The Tau had 3 forward garrisoned pathfinders, 1 formation in its transports. The humans garrisoned in some woods with one man in the open to get close to left hand objective.
The Hammerheads (what a waste of ion AA shots) were in the centre with the hill blocking the Los. The last pathfinder formation was away on the right and the crisis on the left.
The start of the game ended idle banter amongst Hammerhead crews over the merits of Swordfish against massed armour

With bugger all flak my aim is to rush forward and kill every Tau I can find, then weather the damage until the end of turn three. My aim is for the BTS, Blitz and Take and Hold.

Turn 1
Tau win initiative.
Guard go first.
I don't mess around with decisions and implemented the plan, doubling up a warhound and opening up on a pathfinder formation. Both plasma's strike home and the bolter shells shred another one. The surviving pathfinder hops in a transport and they retreat broken.
The Tau respond with one formation of Hammerheads popping up and laying into the warhound (who is just markerlit). It losing shields and a point of damage. Disregarding my advice about leaving the air till last and running me out of activations an A-10 is summoned and in the best tradition of Taros nukes it (1 TK hit, 1 normal hit).
Hmm, seeing an angle I double up a shadowsword and blow away an unactivated hammerhead (that should have been activation 1).
The Tau calm down and overwatch the humans.
The other shadowsword went on overwatch to stop any pop up attacks repeating.
Being a bit daring the Orca zoomed in to wild weasel the Leman Russ's Hydra. It got hit in the process but managed to blow it away.
Sensing the flak wasn't here to stay the SHT company marched forward into the center of the board.
An A-10 failed to activate needing a re-roll to go and shoot a Leman Russ.
The mech now doubled forward, deploying into woods (the chimera staying outside unwilling to risK dangerous terrain rolls) and opened up on the pathfinders near them to little success (a pathfinders armour held).
The damaged hammerheads advanced to get a bead on the mech and stripped three stands off.
Seeing the specter of two more A-10 strikes on the tanks I considered going into the wood. However that?s on average 2 failed dangerous terrain tests, just not worth it (moving cautiously means I wouldn't be getting to a firing position). They doubled instead to a position (after an activation re-roll) allowing some of the tanks to fire battlecannon shots at the damaged hammerheads, blowing 1 more away and breaking the formation.
The shot at pathfinders sustained rather than advance closer to the humans laying 3 blastmarkers and destroying a Chimera. The Mech still looked quite comfy in their wood at this point.
Much measuring resulted in me seeing I could double a warhound across (with a difficult terrain roll) to a position where it could just get a bead on two of the broken Hammerheads. Much plasma and bolter shells later both lay dead (yo) with the blastmarkers killing the other two. BTS to me

Asking what sniper meant the Tau sent the embarked pathfinders on what many would call a suicide mission, the brave chaps piling out of the transports in front of the wood and firing all their guns at the supreme commander skulking behind the front line of infantry. 8 shots hitting on 6's got lucky and two hits were too much for him to take!
The rough riders were the only thing left and they marched forward to join the mech.
The crisis marched to join the units near the Mech. At this point I realised the Tau were throwing nearly everything into the middle and though this could be spectacular it could go horribly wrong as they weren't as tough as the armour in the vicinity. A cheerful gung ho attitude was evident however and nothing would sway them.
The pathfinders were thrown into the fray, shooting the mech up a bit more.
Finally both TS did long range strikes on the Leman Russ staying away from the resolutely unsuppressed remaining Hydra, the first missing with everything, the second getting a TK kill and a lucky missile kill.
Rallies were successful, with the pathfinders rallying, but the Leman Russ and Mech had blastmarkers left on them.

Turn 2
A lot rested on the initiative roll. I win it, its goodbye Tau. Tau win it, and well I still reckon its goodbye Tau. It will just hurt more. Was I right?
Damn Tau win roll and at this point discussed the options available.
The Hammerheads moved up (up and away), taking the Shadowsword shot on the chin and the survivors shot into the 'Russ killing a tank (at this point now 9 strong with 4 blast markers).
The crisis retained and did a combined fire with a pathfinder unit (both sustaining) into the mech, breaking it. Chimera attempt to pick up troops in cover and one crashed into a tree, the rest of the formation was picked up and ferried back.
What to do? The three formations in contention (Russ, SHT and roughriders) had a plethora of targets. But the russ were looking fragile and four airstrikes could wipe them out.
What the hell, there?s more where they came from. The SHT crashed forward and annihilated the crisis (overkill methinks). The Roughriders then wiped out a pathfinder formation (mean).
Unfortunately I has got carried away here and targeted the one that had already activated (I am clearly out of practice).
The Tau did a co-ordinated fire with the two pathfinder formations, doubling forward to surround and wipe out the fleeing mech.
In return the Russ sustained into a pathfinder formation, wiping it out (death death death and more death!).
Fleeing a bit like lemons at the back (clearly) the humans advanced up, putting a blastmarker on the Russ.
The warhound decided to go and wipe out the rallied pathfinders (lots of luck there).
Clearly all the blood was to much for the Orca, who failed to activate.
A doubling shadowsword managed to just clip a Hammerhead and send it to its doom (4+ roll to).
A-10 time. 1 plane failed to call up (oh for a crisis formation

) but the other three crashed into the russ killing 7 (the first two planes broke them, the last one got 2 kills which translated into an immense 5 dead!).
End of turn the Hammerheads rallied, leaving them with a blastmarker, but the remnants of the mech and the two russ fail (and who ran then into a wood, crashing a tank in the process).

Turn 3
Imperials win initiative draw.
Well, still got 6 WE and the rough riders, against the humans, 2 pathfinder formations, some hammerheads and all the air.
The SHT double up to take both the blitz (smaller table helping here) and another objective, breaking the humans in the process. Then its ether retain with roughriders (firefight hammerheads) or the warhound (move to reinforce blitz and shoot hammerheads). The 1+ init swings it, and I fail anyway. So they shoot the hammerheads, leaving them 1 bm shy of breaking.
The hammerheads just activate and finding they can't both contest the objective and shoot the russ (too much wood in way even when popping up) just kill the tank.
Seeing the train of bombers could knock out the SHT near the blitz, the roughriders canter over to secure the other objective so the T&H isn't dependant on the blitz.
Discussion of Tau options put them at needing to neutralize the 2 mobile shadowswords, stop the blitz and take my blitz and another objective to win (if the roughriders weren't on the blitz as well the other option was air strike an SHT and one of the shawdowswords then co-ordinate fire to double both pathfinders onto objectives and land the orca on a blitz )

Why does epic come down to not failing activations sometimes? It reminds me of blood bowl!
So first off, air strikes. A TS comes in and in a sterling display of gunnery breaks a shadowsword (the one with a commissar and the chance of assaulting a pathfinder formation). A second plane is called to complete the picture but fails to activate.
The last Shadowsword can't advance to shoot and leave the chance of something getting through to the blitz, so instead moves back to the secure it.
Another TS fails to activate. Tau plan now needs adjusting.
The last TS activates, flys straight at the shadowsword... and gets no hits.
So drama, rather than activate one after the other in case one fails (effectively a draw we reckon if one roll doesn't pass) and for a definitive outcome the two pathfinders do a co-ordinated fire action, the first doubling up to contend one objective and lay a BM on the shadowsword, the second to take the other objective and shoot the mech a bit
The Orca activates and lands on my blitz to draw the vp's at 2 each (T&H and blitz).
The mech fail to rally, as do the Hammerheads, the shadowsword on the blitz removes a blastmarker the other is put off by the pathfinders and the humans peg it.

Turn 4
The might of the Imperial warmachine (or war engines) faces the 2 pathfinder formations, or would if they were not virtually in each others deployment zones.
Tau win initiative and more discussion follows. The shadowsword clearly has to go and an A-10 is summoned to do it, breaking the tank.
The SHt's then get into some cover and extend themselves to break and then auto kill the Orca.
The Hammerheads try to marshal and remove only one BM, first moving to contest the blitz.
The warhound puts them out of their misery with an assualt (got a commissar don't you know).
A pathfinder formation doubles up to the blitz doing an auto point of damage to the shadowsword.
My last activation is to spread the roughriders out across all three objectives making, I hope, it nigh impossible to shift me.
The other pathfinder unit fails to activate but still gets to do an auto bm to the shadowsword killing it.
The bad activations continue and 3 A-10s fail (bloody hell).
After me explaining how draws work the last AX-10 blows up the remaining solo shadowsword.
Both the humans and the few stands left of the mech fail to rally.
Tau - 2100 VP
Imperial - 1750

Verdict.
AX-10. Entirely unrelated to the batrep but having the air defense burst cannon back would be nice

I should say the planes were not applied as well as they should have been. I think the way to use them is pick a target and stay with it. All 4 planes hitting the russ turn one would have broken them after the orcas strike - 5 bm for the planes, 5 for the kills, 10bm verse a strength of 8 (on average). The warhounds could have been turn 2 targets.
Equally though I made mistakes, shouldn't have bothered with overwatch for example. There was a lot of bad luck in the game as well activation/rally wise (or perhaps I'm used to game with supreme commanders being alive).
Regardless of how well you think the TS do in this report it does show that even someone new to them goes after sure kills (russ) rather than 1 dc off of a WE (well, with the exception of the warhound though I think that was for fluffs sake!) if given the choice. Its just a steady reduction in fire rather than the 'jump' when you kill or break a WE.

Orca - for 100 points the chance of an objective grab is a bargain. Don't put it in too much danger and remain in contention to claim or contest any objective!

And finally - a plug!
Neil has a painting service here in Bangladesh, low prices, good quality. He is both a historicals and fantasy fan and himself owns a primarchload of epic in storage in blighty. Not much experience of commercial painting of epic yet and readily admits that tuffskull style work is beyond his team but will be able to paint up battle worthy forces in bulk cheaply. Anyone wanting his email/website address pm me (in an attempt at keeping the batrep thread on topic). I think I have advertised it before somewhere on here.

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HecklerMD

Post subject: 4 aces? Batrep

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:28 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:42 am
Posts: 201

Uggh, the idea af a whole new round of "# Aces" threads makes me sick to my stomach. Literaly.

What is it this time, 900 Tau Air, Vs. 100 IG Flak? No, wait, you took a Orca too. Only 10-1 points ratio.

Very educational, I'm sure. I'll say it again: Ad Nasauem.

And where are my thunderbolts?

I'm guessing with the rest of your CAP-Capable units: Off the list so you can prove a point.

:angry:

To contribute, I'll give an abridged batrep of my own. I'll only put in the TS-related parts:

Tau Vs. SM:
SM has 3 Hunters
Tau had 1 TS, 1 flight of Barracudas, and various Skyray/ICHH about.
Tau took every oppertunity to eliminate or suppress the SM flak, aided by the fact that around 40% of the SM Army was onboard a Strike Cruiser in Orbit and not showing up untill turn 2. Still, by the last actions of Turn 1, 2 Hunters were still able to shoot.
TS Activated last in Turn 1... and was blown out of the sky. Without ever firing a shot.

Conclusions:
225 Pts Flak Vs. 475 Air makes for a very different outcome.

TS in smaller numbers (Like a sane person would take): A fairly balanced piece of Hunter-Fodder.

Yes, its harsh. I'm ok with that.

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: 4 aces? Batrep

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:49 am

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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London

I'm guessing with the rest of your CAP-Capable units: Off the list so you can prove a point.

Hmm, you weren't following the other thread then, umm, page 1 of the A-10 thread and the start of page 2.

This was the army that won the CC, beating in the process a marine air assualt force and an ork force with 20 fighter bombers. I admit to not remebering the level of flak until I looked up the force, but since it did win the competition it seemed a fair opponent. Indeed facing air assaults, bombers, possibly eldar and the like the chap still went for this load out. Are you saying he shouldn't and have picked something else? He did win you know.

But obviously such an army is now foolish? The only army it lost to incidentally was siegemasters and they only had 2 thunderbolts.

As to your batrep I think it shows very accurately the effect of luck on a game.
I assume that you managed to supress two out of three hunters, though am suprised that you couldn't get them all of them facing only 40% of the force. So that last one (I asume the whole marine on table force was within 20cm of that surviving hunter so you are flying into its range) - 4+ to hit, 5+ to save, 6+ for critcal. 1/2x2/3x1/6 = 1/18
Rare enough not to worry me particulary.

TS in smaller numbers (Like a sane person would take)

Given the old stats I would have been happy taking 5 at 2700, but then again I ain't that balanced.

(A poor joke I know.)

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Tactica

Post subject: 4 aces? Batrep

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:57 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241

TRC,

Umm... interesting battle report.

The IG list looks so odd to something i'd field, that I don't know where to begin!

500pts Supreme Commander
050pts Hydra
Free Commissar

650pts Leman Russ Company
200pts Leman Russ Detachment
050pts Hydra
Free Commissar (in Vanquisher)

250pts Warhound Titan
Free Commissar

250pts Warhound Titan

200pts Shadowsword
Free Commissar

200pts Shadowsword

500pts 2 Baneblades, 1 Shadowsword
Free Commissar (in shadowsword)

150pts Rough Riders
Free Commissar

Im suprised the IG player came to the table with point inefficient shadow swords. I'm also very surprised that he found a need for baneblades when they are considered the joke of the IG SL list by anyone whose played 2 games with them!

...and where are his planes!

I know the AX-1-0 is a SHT and Titan hunter, but were you really trying to stretch the max here to see if they could take them all on?

Just a very bizzare match up.

I can't imagine that Tau list in a tourny. I wonder how it would have faired against the Eldar, Orcs or bugs... LOL... or mairne air assault heavy force. You have NO fighters to engage the enemy transports - and god help you if he planetfalls on you. Blah... I really don't even see a tau list being formidable in a tourny environment without one unit of fighters.

Both of these lists just look very odd to anything competative in a tourny situation IMHO.

At least the game was a draw... and against a horrible IG list... with a Tau list that looks hmmm... questionable.

Thanks for the bat rep.

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: 4 aces? Batrep

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:24 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London

It is wierd, certainly far away from anything I'd pick (no artillary for one!). But then again Chris won, against some very tough opponents. Perhaps it was the element of surprise! Incidentally the CC is by far the toughest tourney I've been in (even more so than the 1st 40k one I went to over a decade ago with my genestealer cult

).

I'm actually quite confident about taking on a marine air assualt force with the list. The chaps don't worry me that much as I'm mostly skimmers (well the important hammerheads are) so ass. marines and terminators are less effective and everyone else would disperse. Sure I'd lose at least 70% of the force when they drop, but the second the transports are on the ground the TS can mince them (and have in a past battle) and only ass. marines have the movement to catch up with me.

Against a force with interceptors it depends on how many and who. Sure I'd lose to 9 Nightwings, but who would take 9 nightwings? Orks can't do damage fast enough and after the old ork/tau airforce battle I'd be confident about having a chance of beating them.

Saying all that the list ain't that thought out, its just a slight change on the old TS one and increased to 3000 points to match the guard.

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HecklerMD

Post subject: 4 aces? Batrep

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:27 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:42 am
Posts: 201

Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 06 Mar. 2006 (22:49))

Hmm, you weren't following the other thread then, umm, page 1 of the A-10 thread and the start of page 2.

...

I assume that you managed to supress two out of three hunters...

...Still, by the last actions of Turn 1, 2 Hunters were still able to shoot....

Whos not reading what now?

But obviously such an army is now foolish? The only army it lost to incidentally was siegemasters and they only had 2 thunderbolts.

...

He did win you know.

You said the score was: Tau - 2100 VP/Imperial - 1750; switch-a-roo?
Not foolish, but dont pretend that this IG list knocked the stuffing out of the Ork FBs and that it shot down many/any Thunderhawks. Those games were won on the ground. Perhaps if the Tau had taken a more reasonable number of AC and more ground formations, the Tau might have won?

I dunno.

As to your batrep I think it shows very accurately the effect of luck on a game.
I think it shows that some armies out range the TS, while others do not. We are not just balancing the unit to face armies with short or no flak, we are balancing the army to face all armies, making the range of the main guns less of an issue that its being played out to be. I think it shows that the TS is far from un-hitable or un-killable.

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CyberShadow

Post subject: 4 aces? Batrep

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:13 pm

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Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9349
Location: Singapore

Quote (Hena @ 07 Mar. 2006 (06:49))

One thing that I think TRC is trying to make is that AX is used not mainly as WE hunter, but as a RA armour hunter. Since it has 2 shots, it can possibly kill 2 targets. With 1 d3 shot there would be more interest to use it against WEs.

This is a valid point, and not the first time that I have heard it mentioned...

Perhaps surprisingly, I am a little heartened by the report. Yes, the two sides were non-typical, but who am I to determine what a typical Tau player takes! On the other hand, while the AX-1-0 seemed to fail far more than their fair share of activations, they didnt seem to be the scourge that they once were, and considering the relatively little flak in the IG force, the humans put up well against the aircraft. Yes, putting all four against a single Leman Russ formation would knock it out, but you are them committing 900 points against it, while the other IG formations are able to pound the rest of the Tau ground troops. The real question here is what would three AX-1-0 do against the same Leman Russ company? I would guess that it would take two turns to destroy them, although it could potentially break the formation in a single 'drive by'. While there is still more work to be done, this batrep doesnt set off the warning alarms in the same way that they did before the revision of the AX-1-0.

And, I would certainly like to see the pictures of this game! It sounds entertaining! :cool:

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Honda

Post subject: 4 aces? Batrep

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:16 pm

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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

The other pathfinder unit fails to activate but still gets to do an auto bm to the shadowsword killing it.

Is this right? Did you use the seekers on the DF to score this hit with? I'm assuming yes, because otherwise, I don't think the PF's can shoot since they don't have an AT weapon.

Am I remembering correctly?

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dptdexys

Post subject: 4 aces? Batrep

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:34 pm

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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:39 pm
Posts: 1974
Location: South Yorkshire

The Shadowsword (if I'm reading the report correctly) was broken so even though the pathfinders don't have AT weapons they can still put a BM on the formation by shooting at it even though they cannot hit .
This in turn will cause 1 point of damage as the Shadowsword was broken and not fearless .

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Tactica

Post subject: 4 aces? Batrep

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:32 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241

dptdexys,

That was the way I was reading it.

A non-fearless unit that is broken and comes under fire will take one automatic damage instead of taking a blast marker as broken formations do not accumulate BM.

Yes, this happens even if the firing formation doesn't have the necessary AT/AP fire to match the target.

NOTE: Honda, this is not to be confused with AP only firing guns with Disrupt (stealths) attempting to place a bunch of hits on an AT only target though (shadowsword) even though they cannot hurt it - that does NOT work as you cannot allocate AP hits to AT targets per the rules (referencing an old conversation with NH on this one!)

Cheers,

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Honda

Post subject: 4 aces? Batrep

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:15 pm

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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

@dptdexys

Ooh! Thanx for that. I was under the impression that AV couldn't be touched by non-AT weapons.

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"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

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dptdexys

Post subject: 4 aces? Batrep

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:36 pm

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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:39 pm
Posts: 1974
Location: South Yorkshire

ap weapons cannot cause any hits on AV and at weapons cannot cause hits on infantry but the formation still recieves a BM for coming under fire(this is were the point of damage on the Shadowsword came from).

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nealhunt

Post subject: 4 aces? Batrep

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:29 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

I have to admit that I think this batrep is of pretty limited usefulness for evaluating the overall balance of the AX10, due to the near lack of air defense.

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: 4 aces? Batrep

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:28 am

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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London

All true BM wise. For graphic illistration of how to fight tanks with infantry, check out my siegemasters who fight using BM. As it was in this case though, yes, they used the seeker missile (the other was supressed by the bm for failing to activate). Also they were some distance away so it was missiles only and the other formation had lit up the tank.

Whos not reading what now?

Well, that would be me

How did you manage to only supress one out of three vehicles with your ground force? Were other targets more important? 2 Hunters still have a fairly low chance of a kill (about 1/6 I think) so its a risk I too would take (though I would try and only get shot by one of them).

As to pictures go to your local fruit and veg/clothing market and tip over a stall (I did consider taking photo with the various proxies lined up and typing under them what each represented

)!

I do think the batrep is of some use - maybe not to evaluate the overall effectiveness, but certainly from a metagame point of view. This was/is a highly successful list, winning a tough tourney (beating Tiny Tim and Mekboy into second and third place and they are very good ork players) and only getting beaten by an overpowered list (my siegemasters).

So if this list, which you can argue is optimised to destroy lists like this has a tough time, as CS points out, its not all bad. Certainly its no longer a sure thing for a tourney. Would it mean that player might have lost that tourney all other things being equal? I think it would lead to an increase in flak, maybe a couple of thunderbolts, both at the expense of the roughriders no doubt. Going from there you have Neals point about the balance and that is how easy is it now for countermeasures to take out the plane. Well flak is the same as it was before (lots can't hit, activate advantage stopping covering exit routes etc, all covered before) but interceptors now have one less 6+ shot at them before they fire and can attack from the front, perhaps evading the massed Ion cannon fire until after they have shot at the planes. Thats what people should test now (and please use decent plane tactics).

Activation wise the A-10 was a bit unlucky (turn 3 it was 3 fails for 9 activations) but considering that the supreme commander had been jobed and I did occassionally have BM from exiting it wasn't that bad, even average. With a re-roll I reckon I would have been 11 for 1 fail and only have failed 2 rolls turn 4.

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4 aces? Batrep

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