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V4.4 - Markerlight Sentry Drones
Honda	Post subject: V4.4 - Markerlight Sentry Drones Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:54 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas	I think Teleport, not Garrison. Everything else looks good. _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
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Ginger	Post subject: V4.4 - Markerlight Sentry Drones Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:55 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm Posts: 5483 Location: London, UK	CS Are these still intended to exert an Zone of control? This seems odd as they have no offensive capbility! As stated earlier, I would prefer that they have no effect on opponents other than to prepare "killing zones". And possibly, I wonder about whether they are actually too expensive. (unlike me I know ) I guess the question is just how effective they will be, will they get their points back, or put another way, how much more effective will the boosted formations be? However, will leave that up to you Ginger _________________ "Play up and play the game" Vitai lampada Sir Hemry Newbolt
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CyberShadow	Post subject: V4.4 - Markerlight Sentry Drones Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:51 am
Swarm Tyrant Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm Posts: 9349 Location: Singapore	Hi. What is the reasoning behind having no zone of control (beyond the logical, rational one)? The reason that I ask is that introducing this change is a fairly big alteration to the main rules, which I dont actually think will affect 95 percent of situations. Besides, I am not against the idea that the enemy would need to stay out of a minimum distance from these unless assaulting them. As for points, I would not like to make them much cheaper than this, particularly before their use if effectively gauged. As with most things, these will be 'such it and see' to see whether they perform within their expectations. _________________ https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond. https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.
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Tactica	Post subject: V4.4 - Markerlight Sentry Drones Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:11 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	CS and Ginger, I say 'don't drop the points lower' yet. Points, because I think if we go higher - they are not going to be used. If we go lower, I think it becomes too compelling to by 200 points worth and saturate an area of the field with ML. GM heavy lists are going to have to see how they make use of these things and whether they are worth the points are not, but I'd rather play it safe at 75 to start. ZOC - I don't see this hurting anything and it's another rule and divergence from the main rules to get them in print. KISS. So if you want to enter the ZOC, you have to charge them - not a big deal... Thinking... [Digression Mode] LOL - heaven help the guy that charges a unit of these things while he has blast markers and only with 5 models, somehow can hit them and goes into the tie breaker roll off and rolls snake eyes, then gets outnumbered and has too many blast markers so breaks... LMAO... It would be the equivilent of putting your guns away and running blindly into a metal wall - while being on Tau camera. That would be hilarious. Cheers, _________________ Rob
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Ginger	Post subject: V4.4 - Markerlight Sentry Drones Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:37 am
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm Posts: 5483 Location: London, UK	Hi CS The potential issue that I see is that a number of these formations, if cunningly placed, could well be used as a cheap 'Area denial" mechanism, forcing the opponent to use activations to clear them - which is not I think the intention. Even moderately spaced, a formation will have a ZOC of 25Cms (or approx 10"), fully spread out they will extend over 35Cms (or approx 1'2"). Three such units will mask half the average table! And as Tac so eloquently puts it, they could even break an assaulting formation, with some admitedly extreme die rolls - which would quite likely leave a bad taste in your opponents mouth (even though you may well be rolling around the floor). All the best Ginger _________________ "Play up and play the game" Vitai lampada Sir Hemry Newbolt
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Tactica	Post subject: V4.4 - Markerlight Sentry Drones Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:05 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Ginger, All the same, if you have to 'teleport' in the 'area denial' that you speak of, you also have to use the points to deny said area. You'll also have to risk losing a lot of that as soon as the enemy puts a hurt on those formations. Regards to the 'assault' possibilities - such things can happen with any formation. ZOC or not - it has nothing to do with bad dice and moronic tactical decisions. If you charge anything with less units and more blast markers - your just asking for bad mo-jo on the dice IMHO. I say enough hypothetical testomonial regarding extreme possibilities - test it and see. _________________ Rob
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Tactica	Post subject: V4.4 - Markerlight Sentry Drones Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:05 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	CS, BTW: these things cannot claim - right? cheers, Rob _________________ Rob
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The_Real_Chris	Post subject: V4.4 - Markerlight Sentry Drones Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:05 am
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London	So the list of possible exceptions for the unit is - no ZoC cannot claim cannot activate Is there a simpler way of doing it? _________________ If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com! 'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913 "Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography." General Plumer, 191x
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Honda	Post subject: V4.4 - Markerlight Sentry Drones Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:03 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas	My personal opinion, just based on my games with them (about 6 now), is that the ZOC isn't that big an issue, but I'll caveat that by saying that I've never taken more than two in a game. It gets hard to justify the points for more. If an opponent wanted to pick up a decent amount of points to pad the tie breaker, then these are the guys to do it with. There's not a lot of risk involved. As far as claiming objectives, I've always maintained that they should NOT have that ability. This unit is not supposed to allow for a cheap win, it is supposed to facilitate a carefully planned attack. _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
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Ginger	Post subject: V4.4 - Markerlight Sentry Drones Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:27 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm Posts: 5483 Location: London, UK	Hi Tac Since Teleport happens after deployment, but before the start of the game, I was envisaging a situation where a string of the things was put across the front of the main body of the opposing troops, forcing either a huge detour, or wasted activations - thus the area being 'denied' is really a more appropriate route. I also thought that they would ignore BMs (as they are robotic, and have no inate offensive capabilities), thus requiring to be destroyed - which could be quite difficult if they are placed in two parallel lines, combined with their 4+ armour save. In essence this tactic would be a means of delaying or restricting an opponents manoeuver - or even of channeling him away from beneficial terrain / objectives - neither of which was the intention of this unit IMO. Note, I believe that the way the Drones enhance Tau firepower may in itself have a similar effect anyway; its just I feel that should be a decision of the opponent rather than one dictated by the rules. All the best Ginger _________________ "Play up and play the game" Vitai lampada Sir Hemry Newbolt
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Tactica

Post subject: V4.4 - Markerlight Sentry Drones Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 8:32 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241

Quote (Ginger @ 04 Mar. 2006 (08:27)) Hi Tac Since Teleport happens after deployment, but before the start of the game, I was envisaging a situation where a string of the things was put across the front of the main body of the opposing troops, forcing either a huge detour, or wasted activations - thus the area being 'denied' is really a more appropriate route. Again - this would be an 'extremes' excersize. What is the Tau player sacrificing in order to be able to 'deny' a portion of the field? How important is that portion? In a game where you can 'tripple' around such blockaids, how big of a deal is it? If I can shoot or assault them away pretty quickly - then the rest of the force can funnel through - again, was it a big problem to the enemy if I paid 75 points per 6 models to do this with? I hear the scenerio - I just don't see the problem. There's no claiming and there's no activating. ZOC just doesn't seem to be a problem, afterall, the Tau player is paying for that 'luxury' of some denial - however fleeting the denial may be. This is just like what I told TRC... are you sure your not TRC? Its worry for worry sake - not actual test experience. To be fair though - ZOC is not their main purpose, so if it had to go - I wouldn't be offended, but I think it should be tried first with ZOC than making another rule to remove it - as again, I see the scenerio and tactic - its interesting. I just don't see the problem right now. In essence this tactic would be a means of delaying or restricting an opponents manoeuver - or even of channeling him away from beneficial terrain / objectives - neither of which was the intention of this unit IMO.

I think the markerlights in themselves infuse an 'area denial' mentality in the opponent. Its more psychological than physically restricting movement.

But as stated above, interesting tactic... the tactic will have a stiff cost of 75 / 6 'barracades' in this proposition. Its a point of interest, but not an obvious problem by any stretch.

Since we keep talking about the hypothetical...

- = 5cm ZOC/coherency.
U = 2cm LV sentry unit.

- U - U - U - U - U - U -


35cm + 12cm = 47cm is max area denial.

As you are talking about 122cm across a 4' section of a deployment zone (not even 6' or 8' mind you) it would take 3 formations just to 'deny' a 4' section of a board. That's 225 points (75 * 3)

Now, this is ONLY until somebody shoots the middle out of one of the formations at which time the unit is now out of coherency and the 'remenants' must disappear at the end of the turn. But you've also just opened up a path for units to travel through.

You could also simply activate a flier or charge to make a hole...

All of this assumes you actually needed to go through that 122 cm he is blocking with his 225 point investment.

meanwhile, if you pop a hole in the middle of three of his formations that he dropped over there, then he's going to lose all kinds of models at the end of turn 1.

Now to double it (6 units) and have a 'parrellel' barracade like you postulated, then he would have to invest 450 points to block the 4' of deployment zone. Now we are getting into a healthy investment. It should require some work to just rid him of that investment. However, you can still just 'go around' the formations if you choose as he's still only doubly blocking the 4' section of board.

Furthermore, in order to block an entire 6' deployment widith... you need to deny 183cm. Well, if each unit can only block 47cm (see above) then that means you will need 4 formations at 75 each to make a single weak line (300 points) or you need to double it (600 points) to make a double. OK - now that's just insane points dump into something that cannot win you the game.

As every two of these require you buy a cadre of at least 200 points - you are really getting into a healthy investment to 'attempt' to deny the opponent some of the battlefield.

So... as we are **WAY** into the realm of TRC-hpothetical-Land... (and its a scary place mind you) I say we stick to the basics, leave ZOC in - and test the heck out of it.

We can always tweak it as needed.

Cheers,