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Elysian Drop Troop
Honda	Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:37 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas	What does elites mean in 40k? It means that you can take 0-3 of those types of units. So, in the case of the Elysians, they can take 0-3 Hardened Veterans or 0-3 Stormtroopers, or any combination of the the two as long as they do not number more than three. Other question: Are you an Tactica comfortable that the demo charge (regardless of the range) should be AP/AT +4? Or just AP+4? Thanx! _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

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The_Real_Chris	Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:15 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London	If it were a ranged attack and if its the same as a battlecannon having it at AP/AT4+ makes sense, however I do think that building it into the FF stat (reguardless of how it effects the numbers) is a simple elegant way of doing it. _________________ If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com! 'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913 "Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography." General Plumer, 191x
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Tactica	Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:47 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 24 Feb. 2006 (09:15)) If it were a ranged attack and if its the same as a battlecannon having it at AP/AT4+ makes sense, however I do think that building it into the FF stat (reguardless of how it effects the numbers) is a simple elegant way of doing it. I'm in agreeance with TRC here. I think "on paper" as a stand alone concept, it works either way. Now, to see how it best fits the army is another. I think the 'less powerful' approach is to put it into the FF so that might prove a good place to start Honda. It also simulates the 'close proximity' nature of the attack. It also doesn't make you have to deal with zone of control vs. effective range considerations. I would keep 15cm AP4+/AT4+ as the "in the pocket" as an E:A abstract alternative for the E:A Demo charge if you can't make it work in the FF stat. Cheers, Rob _________________ Rob
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Tactica

Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:03 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241

Quote (Honda @ 24 Feb. 2006 (07:37)) What does elites mean in 40k? It means that you can take 0-3 of those types of units. So, in the case of the Elysians, they can take 0-3 Hardened Veterans or 0-3 Stormtroopers, or any combination of the the two as long as they do not number more than three. @TRC/HONDA May I also add... For reference - An E:A FORMATION loosely equates to a 40K ARMY. Each 40K ARMY has FORCE ORGANIZATION CHART (FOC) requirements and restrictions which all armies must adhere too. In 40K, you are allowed 1 FOC for each 2500 points (or fraction there of) in your 40K army. ?Each fighting element in your FOC is called a UNIT. In 40K, Units are classified by HEAVY SUPPORT, TROOP, ELITE, HQ, and FAST ATTACK. In each FOC in your 40K ARMY, you are allowed: 1-2 HQ 2-6 TROOP 0-3 HEAVY SUPPORT 0-3 ELITE 0-3 FAST ATTACK (you'll notice the cumpulsory amount of 1 HQ and 2 TROOP in a 40K army) Hope that helps to the understanding of ELITE in 40K TRC. _________________ Rob

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Honda

Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:45 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

I would keep 15cm AP4+/AT4+ as the "in the pocket" as an E:A abstract alternative for the E:A Demo charge if you can't make it work in the FF stat. So if I'm understanding you both, you're saying categorize the demo as an "assault" weapon, and try to work it into the FF value. That sounds to me like bumping up the FF value to +4 as it's already at +5. Is that what I am hearing you say? I'm just trying to make sure that I am clear on what "is" is.   _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

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Tactica	Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:37 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Honda, You got it. I think that's the best place to start with the demo charges. Anybody that carries them would have FF4+ (a place to start anyway) other ideas to kick around... GIVEN: 1) So - we know Storm Troopers would have 8 units + 4 Valkyries option in a formation based upon precident. We also know Storm Troopers don't have Demo Charges, just plasma guns.... Precident has them as a contingent, as they are an ELITE in 40K for the elysians, I'm thinking contingent still works in this list... 2) HARDENED VET IDEA: =================================== Hardened Veteren Elysian Drop Troopers Infantry 15cm Ar- CC5+ FF4+ Weapons Plasma Guns R15cm AP5+/AT5+ Demo charge assault weapon (small arms) Notes: Teleport I'm thinking Hardened Vets would only have 6 units +3 Valkyries option in the formation. I see them as a contingent, not as a company. 3) ELYSIAN DROP TROOP PLATOON IDEA: =============================== This suggestion comes from how JJ got the IG 13 units in a platoon. In 40K, you can have 1 command and 6 10-man units... that equated to 1 cmd and 12 5-man infantry units in E:A... I see these as a core 'company' or 'platoon'. I'm thinking the Elysian Platoon could have 9 units in a formation (8 units + cmd) and they would also have 5 Valkyries in the formation. (they have 1 cmd and 4 squads in 40K so same math SL used) For the Elysian platoon, they wouldn't have main shooting guns IMHO... just FF4+ for the demo charges. So the thing I like here is each is different and serves purpose To Summarize: =========== Drop Troop Platoon - Core, no shooting, just demo - 9 units +5 Valkyrie option Storm trooper - contingent, plasma guns only, NO demo - 8 units +4 Valkyrie option Hardened Vet - contingent, plasma guns AND demo charge - 6 unit +3 Valkyrie option Just a rough stab at them... thoughts? cheers, _________________ Rob
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Tactica	Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:40 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	@Honda, Did you notice that the support sentinel Missile Launcher has two modes of fire - one is indirect in IA3 and blast while the other is direct fire and AT based? In E:A I could see something like the basalisk or Defiler for this where it has indirect 1BP per sentinel and then an alternate firing mode of AT only. The direct shot would be 45cm per precident I was thinking the indirect shot would be base 30 and 'indirect' would be 60cm when firing indirect. Thoughts? _________________ Rob
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Honda

Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:58 am

Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

Did you notice that the support sentinel Missile Launcher has two modes of fire - one is indirect in IA3 and blast while the other is direct fire and AT based? Yes, I did notice that, but decided to file it for later as I was more concerned with getting the overall feel of the list "right". Right now, I want to get things close with the basic units, which in this case are the infantry, then attack some of the other formations. One of my concerns right now is the cost of the infantry. I think 225 is the sweet spot and I don't want that cost to jump up on the basic formation unless there's a really good reason. These guys have to stay flexible within their framework and that means having enough units to maneuver. As it is now, it's kind of hard to justify the cost of Valkyries to transport the drop troops and if we start loading lots of goodies onto them, then we get away from the operational concept that is the cornerstone of this force, mobility. So I am looking at this very closely. Anyway, thanx for the clarification. _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

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Tactica	Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:23 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Makes sense Honda. BTW: I revised them above. For some reason, the original proposal didn't show up right. _________________ Rob
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Tactica	Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:43 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Quote (Honda @ 25 Feb. 2006 (01:58)) As it is now, it's kind of hard to justify the cost of Valkyries to transport the drop troops In my IG - I've grown fond of the disrupt and BP shots that the thing delivers. I'm quite fond of them in the IG list. _________________ Rob
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The_Real_Chris	Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:27 am
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London	What, no heavy weapons Tactica? Would the vets not have them? Also how to differentiate between regular and vets in your proposal Tactica? Another way to look at it is the chain of events when taking an objective. From what I read it seems to be stormtroopers arrive and secure, then drop troops drop to support this and expand, then infantry is ferried up to secure. That a fair flow of what happens - how does that translate to the list taking an objective? Currently it seems you teleport in the troops, then move up stormtroopers to support in the valkries. Then walk up/teleport/transport in more troops. _________________ If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com! 'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913 "Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography." General Plumer, 191x
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Honda

Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:10 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

From what I read it seems to be stormtroopers arrive and secure, then drop troops drop to support this and expand, then infantry is ferried up to secure. That a fair flow of what happens - how does that translate to the list taking an objective? Currently it seems you teleport in the troops, then move up stormtroopers to support in the valkries. Then walk up/teleport/transport in more troops. If you look at the battle report I posted recently, what you propose is exactly what I did. I used the Stormtroopers to attack initially, then followed up to secure and hold with the drop companies. So as it stands now, I am fairly certain that as an operational concept, we can do that and that it will work or come close to working. At this scale I will be very cautious about adding a whole lot of stuff. In IA3, it's very clear that this is a smash n' grab, then hold on kind of force. There isn't a broad range of units and I'm not convinced that adding "Vets" is necessary. One could just as easily use Stormtroopers to accomplish that as we are dealing with function now, not necessarily weapons. One of the things I am considering doing is allowing the ST's to drop in without their Valkyries, thus giving a "Hardened Veteran" equivalent unit. Like I said, this is all very good for helping me think through the next phase. _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

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Tactica	Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:00 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Per IA3, the Hardened Vet is the best of the best in the Elysians. they get the 2 special weapons plus the demo. the Elysians themselves get one special weapon and one demo per 10 men. Very SL IG (every other model) kind of feel. The storm troopers are established already - they don't get demo - and per IA3, they don't teleport/infiltrate either. So that leaves the vets, who 'do it all' so to speak. They have just as much plasma as the Storm troopers and they get a demo to boot. they come in on valyries or they can teleport on. in 40K, they also infiltrate. leaving them out of the Elysian drop troops would be leaving out the terminators in the chaos / marine forces. Leaving out the cream of the crop so to speak. Also, allowing the storm troopers in E:A Elysians would mean 1) steering away from the established storm troopers in IG SL, it would also mean 2) giving them something that IA3 doesn't give them - thus, missing the mark if you want to stay true to IA3's abilities and list. Cheers, _________________ Rob
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Tactica	Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:05 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 25 Feb. 2006 (03:27)) What, no heavy weapons Tactica? Would the vets not have them? Also how to differentiate between regular and vets in your proposal Tactica? TRC, The only heavy weapons in the list come from the following: Navy - maurader bomber - maurader bomber Destroyer - Thunderbolt - Lightnings Skimmers - vulture - valkyrie Support Squads - Anti-Tank - Anti-Personel - Motar - Special weapons (Demo, plasma, snipers) Sentinels - Drop sentinels ( multi-melta or HB) - Support Sentinels (missle with indirect fire capable) Infantry Demos - Hardened Vets - Drop Infantry Units _________________ Rob
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The_Real_Chris	Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:19 am
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London	SO how do hardened vets differ from Stormtroopers? Do they have as much armour? Is their basic weapon better or worse than a Hellgun? _________________ If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com! 'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913 "Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography." General Plumer, 191x
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