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Tired of Arguement
Markconz
 Post subject: Tired of Arguement
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:40 pm 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 06 Feb. 2006 (21:18))
In all the threads that have discussed this, despite repeated requests to do so, not one single person has ever laid out in detail to what extent they think +1SR affects the game. ?The plaintive cry has just been "but it's better" without any quantitative discussion. ?Without some detailed reasoning, that holds no water, just like the 90cm v 100cm example I posted above.

So, again, if you really feel that 10% is justified based solely on SR5, please explain why.

I'm not sure about the 10% value, but I agree with Chroma's illustrations in this thread about it being worth more - ie setup options and more likely to win SR rolls.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Tired of Arguement
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:15 am 
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A question is do you feel when you use regular eldar you have a big boost?

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Tired of Arguement
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:17 am 
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Chroma:  None of those batreps discuss why you think that the SR rating accounts for the 10% difference.  To be clear, I want exactly 2 things:

1) evidence that Ulthwe is worth 10% more per unit than the Biel Tan list, and

2) evidence that the SR rating is the source of said imbalance.

The closest you came to something that might show that was the Alaitoc v Ulthwe which you said was to test the SR effect.  However, you immediately undercut that by giving Alaitoc the choice of board edges (opposite of SR effect), and even the teleport/beginning of turn stuff was all on separate turns.  Basically, there was no way to judge setup advantage at all.  As it was, you were facing an opponent with an SR where the +1 made the biggest statistical difference and by your count it still only resulted in 1 turn's difference in who won strategy.

Or the fact that I've been playing Ulthw? with a 10% handicap for the past three months resulting in a lot closer games than the usual Ulthw? domination.


I'm not surprised at all.  We came to the conclusion around here that the Biel Tan Eldar were a good 10% overpowered 6 months ago.  We've played them down by as much as 25% and had them give a good accounting of themselves.

There is no reason to think that Ulthwe, closely derived from the Biel Tan list wouldn't be the same.  That only shows that Eldar in general are overpowered and not that Ulthwe is specifically 10% stronger than Biel Tan.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Tired of Arguement
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:05 am 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 06 Feb. 2006 (23:17))
Chroma: ?None of those batreps discuss why you think that the SR rating accounts for the 10% difference. ?To be clear, I want exactly 2 things:

1) evidence that Ulthwe is worth 10% more per unit than the Biel Tan list, and

2) evidence that the SR rating is the source of said imbalance.

*sigh* ?

First off, does everyone at least agree that SR5 is better than SR4? ?Five is 25% bigger than four, but I really don't think the difference between SR5 and SR4 is 25%. ?*laugh* ?So, with this in mind, my group experiemented.

Back before I had figured out an easy way to log up battle reports (because I was the only one really interested in the final analysis), my group played a whole bunch of Eldar vs Eldar games using the various Craftworlds. ?Ulthw? came out on top, by a *wide* margin, even when things were mixed up and with different players trying different Craftworlds; so, we played around with point values and percentages and eventually we found that around 10% was a very good difference in points. ?

Yet whenever I would talk about this on the boards, there would be some people that would "pooh-pooh" the idea that Ulthw? should have different point values, using rationales such as "we've always used these point values in all our playtests, changing things would negate all that testing!" or "There's not *that* big of a difference between SR4 and SR5, we should just not worry about." ?Still, there would be a small number of individuals who would PM me or email or, occasionally, reply in-thread that they agreed that something was a little "off" with Ulthw?, but they were unsure what to change to rectify that.

Meanwhile, there was lots of hue and cry about the Eldar being too powerful or nearly impossible to beat and all the other beardy phrases that seem to haunt this dying race. ?My feeling and response to that is if we *see* that there's a potential problem with an upcoming Eldar list, why wait until after it's released to fix it? ?Why not take the initiative and rectify the situation now?

With the Eldar variant lists, we have the unique ability to test the "same" army against itself and see what changing a few variables can do! ?Eldar vs Eldar seem to be one of the rarest types of battles I've heard of. ?Why not try the various lists against each other and see what conclusion you come to?

I'm not saying Ulthw? is 10% better than Biel-Tan, I'm saying *please* try that and tell us your results! ?Play some smaller games, 2000-2500 points so you can get more games in and change sides to give it a go from both sides. ?The 10% has worked well in my play group: both against other Eldar and other armies.

Why not give it a try? ?Isn't that the whole point of playtesting?

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Chroma
 Post subject: Tired of Arguement
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:09 am 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 06 Feb. 2006 (23:17))
The closest you came to something that might show that was the Alaitoc v Ulthwe which you said was to test the SR effect. ?However, you immediately undercut that by giving Alaitoc the choice of board edges (opposite of SR effect), and even the teleport/beginning of turn stuff was all on separate turns. ?Basically, there was no way to judge setup advantage at all. ?As it was, you were facing an opponent with an SR where the +1 made the biggest statistical difference and by your count it still only resulted in 1 turn's difference in who won strategy.

So, what you're saying is that, even giving up the advantage of picking table sides (objective placement and deployment still occured based on SR), taking a 10% handicap, and still winning handily, there's no proof that Ulthw? might be more powerful than another Eldar army?

How many games would it take? ?What would prove it to you nealhunt? ?What amount of evidence do you require?

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MC23
 Post subject: Tired of Arguement
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:46 am 
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Quote (Chroma @ 06 Feb. 2006 (19:09))
So, what you're saying is that, even giving up the advantage of picking table sides (objective placement and deployment still occured based on SR), taking a 10% handicap, and still winning handily, there's no proof that Ulthw? might be more powerful than another Eldar army?

How many games would it take? ?What would prove it to you nealhunt? ?What amount of evidence do you require?

Not wanting to play Ulthwe at Strategy 4 also says a lot about the list. So I'm finding this a very interesting discussion.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Tired of Arguement
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:54 am 
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Quote (MC23 @ 07 Feb. 2006 (00:46))
Not wanting to play Ulthwe at Strategy 4 also says a lot about the list. So I'm finding this a very interesting discussion.

Well, that's fairly obvious; without the SR5, the disadvantages out-weigh the advantages compared to other Craftworlds.

Disadvantages:

- small Aspect formations
- extremely limited Aspect formation access
- certain Guardian formations denied access to Wraith-units

Advantages:

- limited access to 1+ Guardian formations with new options
- powerful Seer Council unit

Ulthw?'s whole schtick is that they know where to be and when more than any other Eldar. ?All the advantages and disadvantages are cool, and I wouldn't want to change them. ?I was even convinced that the limited Aspect thing was *GOOD*! ?*laugh*

Some Ulthw? players don't even take Black Guardians, so an Ulthw? list, without SR5, can basically be simulated by other Craftworld lists, the options within their armylist don't make them special enough.

The thing is, Ulthw? players *want* SR5 and, for the most part, seem quite willing to *pay* for it. ?So, why not let them?




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Fuzzymiles
 Post subject: Tired of Arguement
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:29 am 
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Hey,

Maybe we are looking at this wrong. ?Saying that ULTHWE should have a 10% price hike across the board still strikes me as wrong. ?Blanket statements like this don't take into account the fragile nature of 3 tank formations which crumple just as fast with SR 5 as they do with SR 4 and the fragile nature of most of our armor formations. ?Perhaps we should simply be saying the ELDAR need their prices looked at more than simply the Ulthwe list. ?SR 5, I don't think, is really the problem here. ?Ulthwe takes it's hits in the form of smaller aspect squads and the loss of the void spinner, (I don't care, I don't use those units.) ?But the hits are there. ?Having said that, I am coming around to the idea that in some way, shape, or fashion, the Eldar need some points adjustments, I just don't think that a blanket adjustment to one variant list is the way to go.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Tired of Arguement
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:39 pm 
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Quote (Fuzzymiles @ 07 Feb. 2006 (05:29))
Maybe we are looking at this wrong.

Well, I believe most people think Eldar (if not all the Swordwind armies) are a little off points/special rules-wise.

My point is that I have been playtesting Ulthw? against other *Eldar* armies, and they've been coming out on top of them as well.  That seems to indicate to me that Ulthw? is even more over the top than Biel-Tan.

If the Powers-That-Be really don't think this is a problem worth fixing and just want to wait until after the Swordwind review to apply any changes to the alternate Eldar armies, then just leave Ulthw? the way it is for now.

As to me, any 3000 point games I play using Ulthw? with the current rules, I'll only be bringing 2700 points.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Tired of Arguement
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:02 pm 
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Chroma:  Okay, you did a lot of Eldar v Eldar testing and Ulthwe comes out ahead.  That's still only the first question I asked.  You have yet to address the second.

How much of that advantage is due to SR5?

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Chroma
 Post subject: Tired of Arguement
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:31 pm 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 07 Feb. 2006 (15:02))
How much of that advantage is due to SR5?

About 10%? ?*laugh* ?Sorry, I just had to take a breather and make light of the situation. ?I'm shamefully passionate about Eldar balance, as they were my very first army way back in the day...

Okay, there's obviously synergistic effects that go on so that the SR5 can't be completely isolated as a single cause for Ulthw?'s better performance. ?By your analysis of "vs other SR levels" nealhunt, you indicate that it only gives advantage in going first, on average, 1 out of 6-8 turns, so that's about a 12-16% average advantage for going first/alpha striking/etc. ?Coupling that with the intangible benefits of preferential setup choices seems, to me, to give around a 10% "edge" to Ulthw?. ?Subsequent play, vs other Eldar, seems to indicate that it's about the right amount.

Now, just consider that it's a 10% increase to *only* the base costs of formations, not their upgrades and additions, so, in the final analysis, it winds up around a 5-7% "handicap" for Ulthw?, which isn't, to me, that unreasonable. ?In my personal play, I've just been taking a blanket 10% penalty, because most other players felt uneasy about jury-rigging points on the fly. ?In a tournament/public setting, I tend to bring a 3000 point army and either don't deploy one formation, or leave it in the Webway all game, or what have you.

If you reduce Ulthw? to SR4 and compare it to the other Eldar armies, you wind up with essentially the same points value (obviously). ?Now the intangibles of the limited Aspects comes in to play, and makes Ulthw? slightly less desirable, since its army, sans Black Guardians, can basically be replicated with another Craftworld's list. ?So, the SR5, does make them better.

Composition-wise, this has no effect on the usual Guardians-and-Tanks Eldar army I tend to field. ?It can be created with ease using either Alaitoc, Biel-Tan, or Ulthw?. ?Some say that's not "playing to the strength" of the specific lists, but they're still all the same army by unit, and an effective one to boot. ?If I use the Ulthw? armylist, well, my army is intrinsically better, even if I take no Black Guardians or Seer Council, because of the SR5, yet it costs exactly the same. ?

I like using the Ulthw? list because it allows me to capture the feel of my home-brewed Craftworld (Tien B'rach - Hall of Sorrows) with it's Seers and Guardian focus. ?If Ulthw? is reduced to SR4, I'll just switch to the Alaitoc list, because I can create the exact same army (With Alaitoc being the most "generic" Eldar list) and have better access to Aspect support. ?The only thing that would probably change in my army is that, instead of a Black Guardian unit with Seer Council guarding my Blitz, it'll probably be a Troupe of Dark Reapers with Autarch instead.

So, that, in a big nutshell, is my rationale for the "10% solution"... give it a try, you might like it! ?*laugh*

Thanks for your time and input everyone.

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yme-loc
 Post subject: Tired of Arguement
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:38 pm 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 06 Feb. 2006 (23:17))
I'm not surprised at all. ?We came to the conclusion around here that the Biel Tan Eldar were a good 10% overpowered 6 months ago. ?We've played them down by as much as 25% and had them give a good accounting of themselves.

There is no reason to think that Ulthwe, closely derived from the Biel Tan list wouldn't be the same. ?That only shows that Eldar in general are overpowered and not that Ulthwe is specifically 10% stronger than Biel Tan.

It would be better if you were a little more precise with these sorts of blanket statements - just who are Biel-Tan eldar 10% better than.

As far as I have seen from games they are a little overpowered compared to steel legion (5%), more overpowered compared to ork horde (7.5%). OK they are very over powered compared to ground marine armies (15%) and overpowered compared to air marine armies (7.5%). But when compared to the other official armies Speed Freak, Siegemasters and Feral orks they are either balanced or slightly underpowered.

So assuming Biel-Tan actually averages at say 5% overpowered to ork horde and steel legion (and we then decide these are the bench marks that all armies are to be balanced against - not a foregone conclusion), It might be reasonable to assume that once the 5% increase was added to Biel-Tan, then the strat 5 of ulthwe may account for a 5% increase in power which would explain why chroma's current blanket 10% increase for ulthwe produces a balanced list.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Tired of Arguement
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:00 pm 
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Coupling that with the intangible benefits of preferential setup choices seems, to me, to give around a 10% "edge" to Ulthw?.


This is the statement that I don't understand.  I have no idea how you make the leap from 1 strategy win every other game to +10%.

I think the setup advantages aren't worth more than 1-2% total, if that much.  They are so minor that we often ignore them in friendly games and you have obviously done so also.  Heck, I'd say in probably 2/3 of my tournament games, the player with the highest strategy has just taken whichever side of the table they walked up to or just rolled a die.

That leaves the strategy wins.  Sure Eldar can capitalize on it better than other races and have probably the nastiest alpha strike in the game.  I can see that a well-timed win is probably worth 10% of an army, a bit more for Eldar.

The problem to me is that it's not only not necessarily well-timed, there is no guarantee it will happen at all.  Given that turn 1 is not likely to allow an alpha strike situation, you're really only looking at a significant boost in, say, 2 out of 5 games.

For that to work out, you would have to estimate the value of a good strategy win at ~20% of total army value for the Eldar.  If that is the case the army is broken regardless of point values because 2 lucky die rolls should never equate to a +40% margin.

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Tactica
 Post subject: Tired of Arguement
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:38 pm 
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It seems that we are generally agreeing that Ulthwe design concept entitles the list to SR5.

It seems that we are argreeing that Ulthwe have a balance problem.

Desention appears to stem from whether or not the balance problem is limited to just the Ulthwe.

Chroma's 10% fix works to reduce the Ulthwe's imbalance, but perhaps masking a fix to a larger problem.

NH (and others) appears to state that Eldar in general have a problem of imbalance which can be rectified in list wide point adjustments.

NH & Chroma further seems to state that beyond other Eldar issues, Ulthwe do have advantages when played against other craftworlds.

MC23 has made mention in this or other threads that things like bike points and benefits from spirit stones are identified problems that may or may not get fixed in the future. If when these do get fixed, they will be applied to all craftworlds.

So the question to me is

Do we attempt to fix all crafworld points imbalances? If we are going to attempt that - then NH has the right approach, start with the root of the problem - swordwind, and work from there.

If we are going to accept imbalances exist in Swordwind and other lists - then Chroma has the right approach - fix Ulthwe to be blanced and deal with each other list independantly.

If we do not establish some footing here with the issues, we are going to spin round and round.

Cheers gentlemen,




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Fuzzymiles
 Post subject: Tired of Arguement
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:19 pm 
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I sincerely don't think it is just an Ulthwe problem. ?I have played my same list in Biel-Tan (before I found Ulthwe). ?I ran without an Autarch because I didn't want the 300-500 point sink of aspects w/ or w/o transports. ?I still won. ?The Swordwind list is going to get changed. ?(thats what I've heard) ?So it's silly, to me, to believe we should start changing the points cost of the Ulthwe list only. ?I can certainly go with fiddling with the points cost of some units to bring the Eldar army to the point where we have balanced fights. ?I do mean balance, I would rather get a good balance that makes the fights challenging and fun for both sides ?than have the eldar slide too far in the other direction. ?If we can get at the core of the Eldar (im)balance, any changes that are made 'should' properly affect the other variant lists as well.

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