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AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
dysartes	Post subject: AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 8:35 am
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 12:16 pm Posts: 908	Interestingly, a 60-70% win ration is apparently fine for a published army, going by battlestats - BSM (68% from 25 games), Feral Orks (73%, though only from 15 games) and Eldar (62.4% from 141 games) all tend to indicate this. Interestingly, at this point, both AMTL (38 games) and OGBM (12 games) are both at 50%.... _________________ The forgotten Champion - AMTL, baby! Dysartes.com - Resources for the Modern Wargamer - Last updated: December 2004 - Next Update: In Progress Sentinels are just young titans that haven't grown up yet!
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LDADAMS12	Post subject: AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:16 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:55 pm Posts: 18	I think that they are balanced. And the OGM and the AMTL list are not the only list that you can take an all warengine army with. If I wanted to I can take a guard army with all Baneblades and Shadowswords. (And I could really do it too). Daryl
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nealhunt	Post subject: AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:18 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	Quote (dysartes @ 30 Jan. 2006 (07:35)) Interestingly, a 60-70% win ration is apparently fine for a published army, going by battlestats - BSM (68% from 25 games), Feral Orks (73%, though only from 15 games) and Eldar (62.4% from 141 games) all tend to indicate this. Interestingly, at this point, both AMTL (38 games) and OGBM (12 games) are both at 50%.... No, that's not acceptable.  Complaints about Eldar are voluminous, but you might also note that TRC posed an extensive list of downgrades for the Siegemasters.  I feel similarly about the Feral Orks.  As far as I'm concerned, all the Swordwind armies are 10+% off on their point values. As far as AMTL/OGBM balance, I posted on the SG boards as to why I feel there is a potentially unresolvable problem. _________________ Neal
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nealhunt	Post subject: AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:21 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	Quote (LDADAMS12 @ 30 Jan. 2006 (13:16)) I think that they are balanced. And the OGM and the AMTL list are not the only list that you can take an all warengine army with. If I wanted to I can take a guard army with all Baneblades and Shadowswords. (And I could really do it too). Daryl An all-WE army is not the problem.  An all SHT army has many weaknesses that an all titan army doesn't - greater vulnerability to clipping, hackdown hits, suppression, etc.. OTOH, an all-large-fearless-WE army is a problem. _________________ Neal
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Baduin	Post subject: AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:24 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 9:31 pm Posts: 34	When we are speaking about rules review, what about introducing the following special rule for Titan class war-engines. Crippled A titan-class war-engine which has lost half or more of its DC is crippled. It receives -1 to activation. Additionally, it cannot march, when doubling is treated as marching, when advancing as doubling, and when sustaining as advancing. A crippled Titan  cannot claim objectives. (the idea is taken from BFG)
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semajnollissor	Post subject: AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:40 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:38 pm Posts: 1673 Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA	Quote (Baduin @ 31 Jan. 2006 (17:24)) When we are speaking about rules review, what about introducing the following special rule for Titan class war-engines. Crippled A titan-class war-engine which has lost half or more of its DC is crippled. It receives -1 to activation. Additionally, it cannot march, when doubling is treated as marching, when advancing as doubling, and when sustaining as advancing. A crippled Titan ?cannot claim objectives. (the idea is taken from BFG) Well, I think it would be more simple to say: A WE that has less than half of its starting damage capacity suffers a -1 to initiative checks, a -1 on to-hit rolls, and cannot march. But, I think that would be a BIG change, and really wouldn't be workable. I think the way to go is to put the new rule onnus on the WE lists, in the same way that Tyranids have a unique BTS objective. Maybe change the AMTL BTS objective to "destroy any one battle titan OR the most expensive formation" (fluffwise, even the loss of a reaver is a big deal, as they aren't easily replaced). Or, maybe this is crazy, change the BTS objective to "destroy the LEAST expensive formation," there's no fluff-reasoning behind it, but it would shake up how the AMTL player would play (mainly by forcing him/her/it to not take small formations and, as a consequence, take even fewer activations). I'm sure someone on this or another board can come up with better ones, but the idea is that (if we're going to change something) the change should be with the list, not the general rules. I do think it is very important to find a way to get these lists into the game. The big stuff is what makes this game unique from the rest of the 40k universe. Titans are as much of a hook as huge armies are and they're easier/quicker/cheaper(?) to get ready for gaming, and so can attract new players.
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nealhunt

Post subject: AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:44 pm

Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA

In essence, a very convincing OGBM-style army could be made using just the basic Ork list taking Gargants and Stompa Mobs, with some extra units as filler.  Would you consider that unbalanced? I missed this earlier, but to answer your question, yes, I have significant concerns about the flexibility of the Ork list.  This is one example of how easy it is to build an extreme list.  I plan on tackling that question in the rules review. _________________ Neal

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Lion in the Stars	Post subject: AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:34 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm Posts: 1455	In the line of AMTL/OGBM list special rules, I'd like to point out that the loss of one (out of four) Warhounds on Taros was enough to get all Titan support pulled off-planet (granted, it was only the 3 remaining Warhounds, but still...).  The loss of that one Warhound was shocking enough that they pulled the remaining three out of the battle, even. I don't think that the 'crippled' special rule should be added.  However, I do think that something similar to the 'Nid BTS rule should be added.  Just how to phrase that rule, I'm not sure yet.  I'll be away from the computer for a while in February, so I should be able to get in some playtest games.  I'll see if I can get an old E40k hand to try the new version (if I can ever get him to shut up about how broken the IG arty company was ), and get back to you guys. _________________ "For the Lion and the Emperor!"
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Blarg D Impaler	Post subject: AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:02 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:08 pm Posts: 356 Location: Beavercreek, Ohio, USA	Apparently one of the concerns about the AMTL list is that the preponderance of large Fearless WE makes the AMTL a rather formidable force.  Has anyone noticed that there is not much incentive to take non-WE in the AMTL army? If you look at the AMTL list, is there much reason to take the full 50% of non-titans?   What are the infantry options?  Elite infantry (Skitarri) and very heavy infantry (Praetorians) are the only options, and they are more defensivly oriented. What are the vehicel options?  What are the support options?  The list is geared towards titans, rightfully so, but could it be geared too much towards titans? I think that in the rush to make the AMTL "the titan army" it has been made too powerful by encouraging the overuse of titans.  A well built army list will be such that a player will look at it and not see any "must have" formations.  I think one of the problems with the AMTL list is that the titans are "must have" formations, partly because the other options aren't that good, and partly because there aren't that many other options to choose from.  Because of narrow-mindedness about what the AMTL can, and/or should, do it has subtley forced players to take an over-abundance of titans, creating skewed armies and results. I think it was a mistake to omit artillery, a variety of light infantry, and a variety of scouting ability from the AMTL list.  If you put more support and light units into the army list it will tweek it towards being more balanced. Now, you're probably saying that the AMTL should be the epitome of Imperial heavy might!  Titans, titans, titans! Noooo, the AMTL is the epitome of Imperial technological might with an emphasis on titans and mechanization.  There is no sane reason why there should be no artillery.  Where are the mechanized Tech Guard?  Why aren't Warhound Scout Titans actually acting like scouts?  Is every single bit of kit made for the IG actually sent to the Imperial Guard?  Is there a mass phobia within the AMTL against flying in Valkyries and Vultures, even in a limited basis? You can spout off about how "what is missing defines an army" and you can cling to Inquisitor articles, and you can spin whatever logic you want to spin.  But the fact of the matter is that the list has been structured to produce titan heavy armies, they are being taken, and you are getting the results of Fearless-large-WE, titan-heavy armies. If you want to make the AMTL list more balanced for tournaments you have to make the list more balanced about what can be taken. _________________ I shot a Deathstrike Missile and destroyed an enemy titan in my pajamas last night. ?How it got into my pajamas I still don't know...
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dysartes	Post subject: AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 8:44 am
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 12:16 pm Posts: 908	Blarg> The clue to this lists focus is in the title - as Hena points out, unless the focus is on the Titans, then it isn't a Titan Legion list. I think your point about "pinnacle of Imperial technological might" would be more suited to a Tech-Guard/Skitarii lists, with all sorts of experimental or high-tech systems, and it is something I want to look at further down the line. As for Valkyries/Vultures, would you be wanting to fly around when you have automated systems watching for skimmers/AA targets, ready to shoot them down to defend the Titans? (Carapace Multilasers, in this case) _________________ The forgotten Champion - AMTL, baby! Dysartes.com - Resources for the Modern Wargamer - Last updated: December 2004 - Next Update: In Progress Sentinels are just young titans that haven't grown up yet!
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LDADAMS12	Post subject: AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:19 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:55 pm Posts: 18	I too think that the  AMTL list should be titans. If I have my way it would be titans and knights only; with the titans taking what ever weapon combs that they want. Daryl Also I think that this list is the most blanced that I have seen played so far.
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Blarg D Impaler

Post subject: AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 4:29 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:08 pm Posts: 356 Location: Beavercreek, Ohio, USA

Quote (dysartes @ 01 Feb. 2006 (02:44)) Blarg> The clue to this lists focus is in the title - as Hena points out, unless the focus is on the Titans, then it isn't a Titan Legion list. Well, obviuosly the focus should be upon titans, it is the AMTL. ?The minimum 50% of the points being spent on titans pretty much ensures that. ?But, just because the name of the force is Adeptus Mechanicus Titan Legions does not mean that the force is going to be all titans, or even over 2/3 titans. ?Everyone has been emphasizing the Titan part of the AMTL when maybe we should be emphasizing the Mechanicus part of the name. How would we emphasize the the Mechanicus part of the AMTL? 1) At least 50% of the force is made up of titans. ?(Done) 2) Give a wide variety of weapons and gear to the titans for tactical flexibility and to represent the vast technological base of the AMTL. (75% complete) A lot of the weapons are there, but some are out of balance and some are not very different from the other weapons there. 3) Give a wide variety of infantry that is between the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines in abilities to represent cybernetically enhanced humans and cyborgs. (25% complete) I personally feel that the Tech Guard should be represented in the AMTL list and the Skitarri should be represented as the TG version of STormtroopers. ?Otherwise there should be Tactical, Fire Support, and Assault Tech Guard that are somewhere between the IG and SM in abilities. ?I'm at a loss as to why there is a desire to have a seperate Tech Guard list when they are a part of the AMTL. 4) Give a wide variety of weapon and vehicles to support titan and infantry operations, and to also operate independently if need be to make the AMTL more of a complete force and to show the industrial ability of the Adeptus Mechanicus. (10% complete) The AMTL should have more access to IG equipment, even at limited levels, to round out the army and to show the AM's place within the Imperium. 5) Give the AMTL access to unique and interesting items to show the technological prowess of the organization. ?(Done) ?Ordinatus and Knights pretty much take care of this. <<<--->>> I think your point about "pinnacle of Imperial technological might" would be more suited to a Tech-Guard/Skitarii lists, with all sorts of experimental or high-tech systems, and it is something I want to look at further down the line. The Adeptus Mechanicus is the keeper of all mechanical knowledge. ?Under their domain lays the Collegia Titanica, all of the different titans and war machines that is the fighting arm of the Adeptus Mechanicus. ?The Collegia is further divided up into 4 main groups: - The Divisio Militaris from which the vast bulk of the titans found operate. ? - The Divisio Mandati which delivers the word of the Pax Imperia through the use of Emperor titans and other missionaries. ? - The Divisio Telepathica which is home of the dreaded Psi-Titans. ? - The Divisio Investigatus which conducts research and development activities, builds Ordinatus, and modifies titans for research and improvement I think what you are referring to is the Divisio Investigatus, the R&D arm of the Collegia Titanica, as opposed to the current list which represents a Titan Legion from the Divisio Militaris. ?I too have been thinking about doing a Divisio Investigatus army, with limited availability things like experimental walker Leman Russ and Baneblades, hover Leman Russ, titans mounting alien and experimental weapons, and other oddball nastiness. ?Oh, and multiple Ordinatus too. As for Valkyries/Vultures, would you be wanting to fly around when you have automated systems watching for skimmers/AA targets, ready to shoot them down to defend the Titans? (Carapace Multilasers, in this case)

Have you ever heard of transponders and IFF (Identify: Friend or Foe) systems? ?This is several decades old technology. ?If the AMTL can manufacture and maintain gargantuan walking machines powered by enormous fusion reactors then a functional IFF should be no stretch for the AM.