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Entertaining GW/SG policy rant
The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Entertaining GW/SG policy rant
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 7:04 am 
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http://www.stephane.info/show.php?code=specialist_games

Hmm, is he onto something....
And will it come back to haunt GW in the future by having a reducing amount of time people are involved for?

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dafrca
 Post subject: Entertaining GW/SG policy rant
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 7:31 am 
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It was interesting. Not much different from what has been said here on Epicomm for a long time. Sad, but true. :O

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Tas
 Post subject: Entertaining GW/SG policy rant
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:58 am 
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Interesting Author's Note:

"Author's note: This rant has been slightly rewritten because it was sending too much underserved criticism to Specialist Games' employees. They did their best to keep alive the product lines they were in charge of and should not be blamed for anything. They are truly victims of Games Workshop's ambiguous policy regarding side games."

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Tas
 Post subject: Entertaining GW/SG policy rant
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:52 am 
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I also liked this:

Veterans hardly buy anything


:D   He obviously hasn't heard of Primarch and his hordes of apprentices here! :p

and each of them has buckets of unpainted models bought long ago on impulse and waiting for their attention


...ok, that bit might be a bit more accurate though...:cool:

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Markconz
 Post subject: Entertaining GW/SG policy rant
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:02 pm 
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Quote (Tas @ 20 2005 July,11:52)
I also liked this:

Veterans hardly buy anything


:D ? He obviously hasn't heard of Primarch and his hordes of apprentices here! :p
[/quote]

Exactly. I buy stuff, so do most other people I know who are 'Veteran' gamers. Plus we have to order much of it from GW online rather than the local shop.  I've spent more in the last few years than I ever did as a newbie GW kid.

Let me sum up this rant for the uninitiated:

'Blah blah conspiracy to kill off epic and everything SG, evil GW etc.'

Reality: SG got big and unwieldy, time to restructure and have an element of accountability and control. Sucks for us epic players - at least for a while. However, I'd rather have tough marketing decisions now, instead of a 'corpse' system supported only by fans, just like all the other 'by the fans for the fans' companies out there.

It's GW's responsibility to make a profit - so that they are around tomorrow when I want to buy something. Sure the bean counters muck up now and then, but I don't think this is one of those times.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Entertaining GW/SG policy rant
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 9:13 pm 
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Quote (Markconz @ 20 2005 July,13:02)
Quote (Tas @ 20 2005 July,11:52)
I also liked this:

Veterans hardly buy anything


:D ? He obviously hasn't heard of Primarch and his hordes of apprentices here! :p
[/quote]
Exactly. I buy stuff, so do most other people I know who are 'Veteran' gamers. Plus we have to order much of it from GW online rather than the local shop. ?I've spent more in the last few years than I ever did as a newbie GW kid.

It's GW's responsibility to make a profit - so that they are around tomorrow when I want to buy something. Sure the bean counters muck up now and then, but I don't think this is one of those times.

Granted I have no problem with GW making a profit (well, except for the exorbitant prices for minis  :p  ), but what I do have a problem with are GW's assumptions that Veteran players don't buy new minis and that profit earned by Epic is profit taken away from WH and 40k. I know I'm not the only veteran here who doesn't play/no longer plays 40k. The only thing I buy from GW now is epic minis and it has been that way for quite a while. So, If GW kills epic, the money I would have spent on Epic doesn't get reallocated to other GW's products. Okay, enough of my rant!  :D

On a lighter note, GW obviously is unaware of the Primarch and us apprentices!  :laugh:  :p  If they did, the archive would be re-established!  :D

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Grimshawl
 Post subject: Entertaining GW/SG policy rant
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:17 pm 
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I too dont understand how any real marketing research could fail to turn up the fact that many of the vets do spend cash on GW products and do indeed have alot more interest in Specialist games than 40k as an example.
of all the games companies I deal with GW is the only one that makes me feel like I need have noterised sales reciepts glued to the bottom of my figures so I can prove I'm worthy enough to play their games, a most uncomfortable feeling by the way which leads to angst.
Anyway even if Vets arnt their number one customer, I still dont get why they often show such a negative atitude towards us, we do spend money , I've noticed a startling resemblence between my twenties and a newbies twenties, practicly indistinguishable once in the register it seems.

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dafrca
 Post subject: Entertaining GW/SG policy rant
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:48 pm 
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Just keep in mind this is one person's opinion of how it went. There is no proof this is an "official" or even true account.

I enjoy a good GW bash, but I also take many of these rants with a huge grain of salt. Too often they say what is, but not share how they know for sure.

So reader beware.... :cool:

dafrca




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primarch
 Post subject: Entertaining GW/SG policy rant
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 5:11 pm 
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Hi!

As i have stated before, GW's stance toward specialist games really isnt as ambiguous as it seems. In fact they have they have a very firm stance...

..everything non-core games is just a gateway to get them to play core games...

..its that simple.

GW has long since been a company defined by 40k and fantasy. While some other games get the "core" treatment, they are usually short lived and dumped in the long run.

Ever notice how GW employees ignore you after you tell them you just play epic...?

I did the test again on my vacation at a GW store in Cherry Hill NJ, it still works after all these years... :;):

They will not support or invest in any game that can compete with their two main games. Thats the way it is for now.

Primarch

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dafrca
 Post subject: Entertaining GW/SG policy rant
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 5:41 pm 
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Primarch,

I agree with the overall idea. I just question if the minimum wage geek in the store is part of the plan or if he just looses interest because he knows he has nothing to sell you?

I agree, that once Epic fell from grace it was doomed to be a "non-core" game for the rest of time. I just think that if they sold the stuff in any amount in the stores the geek would have gladly sold it to you.

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primarch
 Post subject: Entertaining GW/SG policy rant
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:01 pm 
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Quote (dafrca @ 24 2005 July,12:41)
Primarch,

I agree with the overall idea. I just question if the minimum wage geek in the store is part of the plan or if he just looses interest because he knows he has nothing to sell you?

I agree, that once Epic fell from grace it was doomed to be a "non-core" game for the rest of time. I just think that if they sold the stuff in any amount in the stores the geek would have gladly sold it to you.

dafrca

Hi!

Actually the minimum wage geek is part of the plan. They are "taught" to push their core games and when someone goes outside of that they are mostly at a loss. Also it is well known amongst retailers that GW specifically tells store owners that "veterans" are to be discouraged from the store and to focus on newbies becuase they buy more. Such stuff was actually in print in some retailer newsletters from GW.

Its not new, just sad and annoying.

Primarch

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Entertaining GW/SG policy rant
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:09 pm 
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Also it is well known amongst retailers that GW specifically tells store owners that "veterans" are to be discouraged from the store and to focus on newbies becuase they buy more. Such stuff was actually in print in some retailer newsletters from GW.


Has anyone seen this in person?  If so, was it in reference to veteran players in general, or was it in reference to game store hangers-on that tend to present a less-than-appealing experience for new customers?

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Entertaining GW/SG policy rant
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:30 pm 
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I have a nephew who currently works for a GW store. I'll ask him if they have any sort of policy for veteran gamers. By the way, he told me his manager has decided to stock epic minis to see if there is any interest. Let's hope.

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primarch
 Post subject: Entertaining GW/SG policy rant
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:34 pm 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 25 2005 July,10:09)
Also it is well known amongst retailers that GW specifically tells store owners that "veterans" are to be discouraged from the store and to focus on newbies becuase they buy more. Such stuff was actually in print in some retailer newsletters from GW.


Has anyone seen this in person? ?If so, was it in reference to veteran players in general, or was it in reference to game store hangers-on that tend to present a less-than-appealing experience for new customers?

Hi!

I have actually seen the newsletter. It dated back in 1996-97. My local game store owner also went to the GW seminars for retailers back then which emphasized what the newsletters said.

The rational was that since so called veterans had more stuff, bought less and were less desireable customers. Also it mentioned that veterans were to be viewed as a "negative" influence since they tended to complain more, buy less and pretty much question GW's marketing strategy.

The store owner I know did not follow such advice in a strict sense, but the change how he did business was noticeable since the place became a vertible day care center for pre-teens and teens. While veterans were certainly not made directly unwelcome, it was obvious to whom the store was catering too.

Also note that I have not seen any more current GW propaganda so I dont now if GW still pushes that notion on retailer today. Then again it may be that such notions are pretty much "dogma"  now and dont need to be repeated as vehemently as in the past.

From my take, it had less to do with the projection veteran gamers may give to new customers and more with the fact that they present less revenue to the store owner and also a possible source of conflict (i.e veteran gamers complaining on price or showing new customers what you could get in the "old days" as compared to the present).

I do remember vividly the newsletter phrase of "actively discouraging" veterans with a list of reasons (some mentioned previously). I was quite taken aback by this. One thing is to hear it second hand, another to see it in print.

While I dont doubt there are GW stores that are more "enlightened", all those that I have gone too that span several states I have lived in or visited, playing non-core games is a quick way to get ignored and left alone in a GW only shop.

Primarch

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Entertaining GW/SG policy rant
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:16 pm 
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Fair enough.

I've known plenty of stores that had problems with some... shall we say... less than desirable grognards who would hang for extended periods making the store seem more like a private club, generally presenting an unsavory experience for new customers (and, more importantly, their parents) and not infrequently in need of better personal hygiene.

That's what made me wonder how "discourage the veterans" idea was presented.

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