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Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them

 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:36 am 
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i was just going through it and there was 1 or 2 posters from outside aus or or the UK?


With air assaults

you will hardly ever take it out coming in. odds are your just going to put a blast. So how would that change this situation? And the lucky chance of a dc getting through and a crit is always a risk.


Is this just going to be a massive dead end and waste of time commenting on here. I thought this is how it works. We think something needs looking at. So many posts at the start about eldar need a look at. Then a heap of posts from mostly UK guys that play a different system at tournaments and thats it?

Greg says we need battle reports which is what we need to do. So its up to us that dont play them to provide them? Isnt point out that they are great in every area and winning tournaments here enough for look?

AA - Best in the game?
Shinning spears - Can assault nearly anything with access to double inspiring.
Artillery to die for
Massive range macros
Free Avatar
Triple retain
Moving special rules

They arnt weak either 5+ Armour isnt that bad and how about the spears with 4+

Anything with a lower strat rating is at a massived disadvantage.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:23 am 
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There are couple of things here really.

If you didn't sound so frustrated I'd think you were trolling, but you do sound massively frustrated and that sucks...

That said it is slightly disingenuous to paint the history of this thread as a bunch of totally rational posts saying Biel Tan need a look at that was then shut down by a bunch of guys from the UK. This kicked off pretty specifically after a bunch of you guys got spanked by Biel Tan at CanCon and I'm guessing at Castle Assault last year and someone made a blog post proclaiming how obviously BT were broken. I have no issue with any of that, but that's the context right? If anything, Ginger's thread has been well and truly hijacked and I need an image of the Back to the Future 3 train taking off at this point!

What you got back was a bunch of fairly specific "how I would counter this list" kind of comments.

It seems like that age old question of "my mate keeps trashing my X with his Y - how can I beat him?" You've been given a whole bunch of possible reasons, ranging from army specific tactics to more general strategies. Have you actually tried them? Even if it's just to prove that they don't work?

It sounds like the list you posted wouldn't really have an answer for a list with 2-3 significant air options and a spacecraft. Just from hanging around these forums for the last few years that seems to be *very* standard tournament list building - and maybe you're starting to discover why? It made literally no sense to me for like two or three years, and I'm from the UK right?!

From a tournament outsiders point of view - I can't even remember the last time I played a game - it sounds like the consensus is:

1. Yes, Biel Tan do have a few benefits that other races don't get, but there are a number of tactics that work around these quite effectively. Basically, they're slightly easier to do well with - all other things being equal.

2. Use air assaults

3. Use spacecraft

Try using the tried and tested counters to the problems you're facing and see if they're still so strong? To be honest, eldar have always felt kind of squishy to me once you actually start shooting them, 5+ is actually quite a big deal, especially 5+ RA against 4+ RA. Shining spears, yeah I guess 4+ is nice but I wouldn't want to be relying on 4+ CC with my dice rolling especially if that means I don't get my save.

I get the impression that many people on here have heard a lot of these arguments many times before - I am definitely not one of those people though and it may be the first time anyone's thought Biel Tan were OP to the point they were just broken.

Just be really careful that you're not more concerned with bringing the nerf bat down whack-a-mole style than getting better at playing a game. The suggestions you've been given are available to *any* player of just about *any* race. I hear Necrons have some fairly good AA and special movement rules too...


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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:27 am 
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Kyrt wrote:
Norto wrote:
Do many of your top players play biel tan at tournaments

Also air assaults, arnt you guys worried about crits and a mass of points blow out of the sky with a lucky roll?

Yes, amongst many other lists of course. Marines and Biel tan are both official (so long standing and popular) so widely played. Notable exception is probably Richard, who did a season or two with Iyanden. But as stated, the top players have just as good records with marines.

Thunderhawks do die to the occasional lucky crit of course. But it is pretty rare obviously (as you would expect from the probability). You have to hit, fail two saves and then crit. Far more likely things can go wrong in a game than that. But whenever I have played against Steve's air assault eldar or Dave's air assault marines (the list mentioned above) it is rare to have any AA left in a position that it can stop the damage being done. Firestorms can't be everywhere, and are very brittle.



The critical on a thunderhawk gunship is that it is destroyed and all units within 5cm are hit on a 6+. Any transported units are destroyed. So All I need is to make it fail a single save, and roll a 6 to ctit it.

The odds of a a single shot hitting, the Thunderhawk failing its save, and its re-roll if the weapon is not MW or Lance, and then the attacker rolling a 6 to crit is dificult/ quite unlikely. It has been done and done to one of my Vessels of Pain that had all its shields stripped the previous turn. It failed its save, from the Eldar Lance weapon, and then my opponent rolled a 6 to crit it. BOOM. The Vessel of Pain has a 4+ save and 3DC, so other than being a flier, the T/Hawk can be likened to a VOP for damaging and critting.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:16 am 
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Norto wrote:
I have a question. Not trying to be a doosh but most of you guys are from the UK and have epicUK used at tournaments? why does it matter so much to you guys if it changed to try and balance the australian scene? Are there other places that have a large scene that are posting here and have an interest?

Not trying be a doosh pointing that out again just asking a genuine question i could be wrong.


Perfectly valid point. I guess the Netea and Epic UK BT lists are very similar so people are simply pointing out that there are ways to play against it. Personally, I do think BT are a very strong army but they do have weaknesses which can be exploited.

Regarding getting shot down etc. Armies have lots of ways of dealing with AA - spaceships, preds, void spinners, zap guns etc so that becomes a priority target - you also then aim to stay within your own aa umbrella to deal with CAP.

Kart, minor correction. RichardL has played as BT but he ran a warlock.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:50 am 
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Norto wrote:
I have a question. Not trying to be a doosh but most of you guys are from the UK and have epicUK used at tournaments? why does it matter so much to you guys if it changed to try and balance the australian scene? Are there other places that have a large scene that are posting here and have an interest?

Not trying be a doosh pointing that out again just asking a genuine question i could be wrong.

Some of us in the UK play using Net-EA lists when not at tournaments and UK players have been instrumental in developing many if the Net-EA lists, so it's not clear cut. Plus there's the European tournament, run in a different country per year which has mostly been run using Net-EA lists but where the UK has always sent a team, so there is more interaction then you might think.

I think the differing interpretation of the terrain and scout rules have a small effect on the Australian meta, but that lists played in the UK that counter Eldar well here could do well at your tournaments too if played well, such as the air assault with spacecraft builds people are suggesting. There's some minor differences between the two versions of the Eldar lists but overall they play similarly. I'm only an occasional and not that strategic a player, so trend to score low at tournaments myself, but I have lived in Oz for a couple of years and so experienced tournaments in both

In the so close to zero probability chance I ever win the lottery I'd love to run an international epic tournament, paying for top players from across the world to fly to wherever and play, it would be interesting to see the results and cross pollination of players and tactics.


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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:58 am 
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I suspect the EUK Eldar lists would actually do better against an air asssult Marine list than the NetEA lists, because they still have the AA Lance shot on the Fire Prisms.

So NetEA Eldar should, theoretically, be even more vulnerable to this kind of attack.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:27 am 
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I think also that a lot of the UK centric posts is largely because we are fortunate to have a large database of results to refer to when discussing results etc, and it does seem to be that the two most prolific tournament scenes in the world right now are the UK and Australian ones, so it's natural that discussion of playing Eldar in a tournament setting is going to bring the tournament players forward, and the majority are in the UK and Oz.

It would be very good to get some viewpoints from elsewhere too, what are the Swedes views? Germans? NEAT group?

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:34 am 
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GlynG wrote:
Norto wrote:
I have a question. Not trying to be a doosh but most of you guys are from the UK and have epicUK used at tournaments? why does it matter so much to you guys if it changed to try and balance the australian scene? Are there other places that have a large scene that are posting here and have an interest?

Not trying be a doosh pointing that out again just asking a genuine question i could be wrong.

Some of us in the UK play using Net-EA lists when not at tournaments and UK players have been instrumental in developing many if the Net-EA lists, so it's not clear cut.


Also this plus a lot of Epic UK lists are based on Netea lists (eg Squats). Plus yeah - sometimes you really want to play something different especially at less formal events!

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:44 am 
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kyussinchains wrote:
I think also that a lot of the UK centric posts is largely because we are fortunate to have a large database of results to refer to when discussing results etc, and it does seem to be that the two most prolific tournament scenes in the world right now are the UK and Australian ones, so it's natural that discussion of playing Eldar in a tournament setting is going to bring the tournament players forward, and the majority are in the UK and Oz.

It would be very good to get some viewpoints from elsewhere too, what are the Swedes views? Germans? NEAT group?


G'day

I have started to write this post several times with one draft being several pages long expressing my reasons on why I feel Biel-Tan are over powered. I had included the fact that I had run Biel-Tan for the last 3 years at the Australian Championships and have played a lot of brilliant Australian players with well written lists. But really what does that matter?...

After reading Kyussinchains well put post above I echo the need for the wider community to have there say. Simply put, the Australian scene will address the eldar concern domestically through Epic AU. However should enough other international Groups feel the same or similar to we Australians we would explore change and test it with NetEA.

Cheers

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:03 pm 
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Mic Fair wrote:
Simply put, the Australian scene will address the eldar concern domestically through Epic AU.


and more power to you! I'm sure EpicUK would (and have) take the same steps with their own lists :)

one thing that I did think of when addressing the preponderance of certain lists in the EpicUK scene is the championship bonus points for taking alternative lists which encourages many players to take a variety of lists out during a season, if this were not in existence, would we see players taking certain armies more often? would it perhaps skew the number of tournament wins in favour of eldar?

Also are we saying definitively that it's Biel-Tan Eldar that are overpowered or more generally 'Eldar of any kind' because the other main craftworld lists, like ulthwe and iyanden all have access to the same special rules, aspect warriors, free avatar etc, so it's perhaps less those rules that are to blame and a simple few tweaks here and there would bring it back into line?

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:04 pm 
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Ok guys several points.

  1. Lets keep it civil
  2. Lets try to be helpful not critical - and please accept comments that way too ;)
  3. Lets try to be inclusive not exclusive. Realise that "the tournament scene" is not the only way to play (and some are turned off by tournies) and that there are a lot of other folk besides those in the UK or OZ.
  4. Lets try to be objective not subjective. We all have good and bad experiences but hopefully we can learn from shared experience - and share some hints and tips, tactics and strategies :)
  5. I have changed the topic title to reflect the flow (should have done so from the start :-[ )[/list]

Finally, I am painfully aware of the frustrations in the OZ community over the Eldar. The last thing I want is yet another split in the global community if it can be avoided, not least because of the excellent contributions made be those folk (Onyx, PFE to name but two). So how can we help them here?

And thanks Mic and Kyuss for those last posts.

And a personal plea; I am a mediocre player, plagued by bad dice (as you all ought to know by now ;) ) that would love some help on fighting those pesky Chaos armies esp Black Legion and 1K sons , Ok?


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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:27 pm 
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As a non-tourney player (seriously, I'd rather have a colonoscopy) AND being in a region without a national circuit (too diverse and low a population density to get above a a metro level generally, NEAT excluded) I really appreciate your words Ginger.

Also I think it's important to remember that NetEA's mission statement was basically to build on the existing GW work and broaden it, especially with lists, using the original produced content as a baseline. It was not to create a living rulebook nor to redact what came prior. It doesn't mean that isn't a worthy endevour or a bad thing, just not what NetEA (and by extension EpicUK) set out to do 11ish or so years ago. Basically unless there's universal agreement, and even then not always, the side of conservatism will be deferred to.

Now as an outsider, it's readily apparent to me that one area of friction between primarily UK vs AU players seems to be over the vibe of the games they're using. The AU players largely are looking for a slightly different flavor of lists and builds than what was originally produced by GW and are looking to be better "fulfilled" in that manner. This is not a bad thing whatsoever and and think when viewed under that light exposes why as a goal it runs, I suspect rather frustratingly, into the aforementioned conservative stance of NetEA and EpicUK. I don't think either group is understanding the core motivations of the other.

edit: corrected typos

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:48 pm 
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I'm a Swedish player and one of the more active tournament organizers in the recent years. I don't think the BT list is overpowered and find the proposed build from the Oz community to be sub-par.
I've also noticed the lack of air assaults and space ships in the CanCon lists.
I don't speak for the Swedish community but to me the EpicUK guys make very valid points and arguments.
I also think that EpicAU lists would be a great thing since I find that we view the game kinda different.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:31 pm 
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I consider myself a mid-tier tournament player in Sweden (6 out of 12 in 2015. Had a baby last year). I don't think BT is overpowered either. I've beaten the Eldar multiple times and I've had my fair share of losses to them as well. E.g. I won the Gothcon tournament in 2009 with a finals vs. BT and managed to draw (or was it even a win?) against them vs. Ulrik in the Berlin EEC. Arguably, the last one was partly because the local rules interpretation allowed me to block the warp gate which we disallow in Sweden nowadays. But I have beaten BT since at home as well.

I play mostly Orks and Steel Legion.


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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:16 am 
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Im glad mic posted. i was looking like a super sook complaining about them.

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