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Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them

 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:07 am 
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I did get some pics of Steve's game and iirc he took activation notes, I'll get them uploaded soon, I would have taken more pics but I was busy crushing MikeT's necrons on the next table...

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:29 am 
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Let's not say wrong. Clearly there is a different meta though, it would indeed be interesting to have a world epic championship to see these games happen :)

Don't really see the threat so much on those foot guardians honestly. Even marching they still can't get over the halfway line and that's assuming two perfect cover setups for each formation - and you know where they are going to go even if they do out activate you. If you let them live to the end of turn 2 - and without the eldar's dreaded blast markers - you're gonna pay. Plus let's be honest, it's not 99% that Eldar out activate- they have to sacrifice a fair bit to hit very large numbers of activations, and still many armies often have more. If an army relies on activations, you know what you need to do - kill some frail ones like rangers, falcons (targets anyway). Most things in eldar armies are squishy, relatively speaking. It does sound like terrain is the element that comes up frequently in these discussions - eldar absolutely rely on it. There's only so much on a board and all formations cannot go in the same place. Limiting where eldar can place their falcons, guardians and aspects is pretty important IMO - as an eldar player you always feel like you're on the back foot if you're having to place units in exposed positions in order to counter a threat, and indeed more generally if you are having to react to the enemy as opposed to dictating the pace and place of battle.


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 Post subject: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm 
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Bored on a train so just looked at tournament win records for armies in the UK in the last 2 years. It's actually pretty tight. Biel Tann are in the top 3 with 3 wins. But for context that's 3 out of 21 tournaments so if they were properly broken I'd expect that to be a lot higher.

If you go by faction marines are well ahead of them with 6 wins (notably all the winning marine builds are of the 2 x thunderhawk + landing craft, preds, termies and spaceship variety - but then there's usually one of the top players running that at any given tournie so could be list but also could be player quality - or a combo of both).

Totals are:

Dark Angels 3
Necrons 3
Biel Tann 3
Codex Marines 2
Black Legion 2
Ghaz orks 1
Ulthwe 1
Tau 1
Tyranids 1
Steel Legion 1
Death Korps 1
Black Templars 1

That's a pretty broad spread. Perhaps the only consistent thing is that large titans are very rare in competitive builds with only Ulthwe featuring one (a warlock)!

There's been 8 different tournament winners though only 4 players have won more than once (I think we can all guess who they are).

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:26 pm 
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Pretty interesting data/information that Steve, cheers.


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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:42 pm 
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I've done a bit more data mining of the EUK stats, taking two of the top players, Steve Gullick and Dave Thomas, both have win percentages in the mid 60s with both Marines AND Eldar, (both with well over 20 games with each race) armies which many would argue are at opposing ends of the power scale, yet when you look at their records using Chaos, often complained about as being all-powerful, both of their win percentages drop noticeably, Dave to 57% and Steve to 44% this data also contains games played back in the days when black legion were considered to be a plate of particularly cheesy cheddar, yet it hasn't skewed their records.... while I'm fully aware of the dangers of basing any kind of stastical analysis on such miniscule sample sizes, you don't see a significant jump in the results of most of the good players (Joe Jephson is another top ranked player who has very similar records with both Marines and Eldar)

I think it would be good to compare similar sets of data from players around the world, do other metas, especially those using netEA lists see big jumps in win percentages for the same players when they use eldar?

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:47 pm 
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The other thing I spotted was the importance of air assaults. I think of armies who can take proper assault units in aircraft (so discounting tau) only the ulthwe list doesn't go for at least a double air assault all the BT, marine and ork lists did so. With eldar in particular that's obviously a huge difference in meta between the UK and Aus.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:49 pm 
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I've never played a tournament game with anything other than Orks, so can't comment on using them, only on having come up against them.

In my experience, it's the player that makes the difference, not the list. I've always (felt like I've) been at the races against most of the lists mentioned as being OP, unless it's been the top tier players. In which case I've routinely been beaten, irrespective of what is being used.

I think there are a number of lists/units that don't require quite so much finesse to play, but this doesn't necessarily mean they are OP...


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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:14 am 
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Do many of your top players play biel tan at tournaments

Also air assaults, arnt you guys worried about crits and a mass of points blow out of the sky with a lucky roll?

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:55 am 
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I'd guess that comes down how much AA you're facing, how much you prioritise taking it out before going in for the kill and what style of air assault you're talking about. I hadn't particularly considered landing craft packed with preds until Steve54 mentioned it. That sounds like a potentially scary prospect, particularly if it's aimed at your AA cover for a particular area of the board and has the possibility of out ranging any AA on its way in.


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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:21 am 
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One of the reasons I often take a space craft with Marines, Eldar, and Dark Eldar is because you can orbital drop your air transports if AA looks heavy.


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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:23 am 
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Norto wrote:
Do many of your top players play biel tan at tournaments

Also air assaults, arnt you guys worried about crits and a mass of points blow out of the sky with a lucky roll?

Yes, amongst many other lists of course. Marines and Biel tan are both official (so long standing and popular) so widely played. Notable exception is probably Richard, who did a season or two with Iyanden. But as stated, the top players have just as good records with marines.

Thunderhawks do die to the occasional lucky crit of course. But it is pretty rare obviously (as you would expect from the probability). You have to hit, fail two saves and then crit. Far more likely things can go wrong in a game than that. But whenever I have played against Steve's air assault eldar or Dave's air assault marines (the list mentioned above) it is rare to have any AA left in a position that it can stop the damage being done. Firestorms can't be everywhere, and are very brittle.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:24 am 
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And yes the landing craft move is particularly annoying, there not being much you can do about it at all.

Mind you, eldar have plenty other stuff thats annoying themselves :)

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:45 am 
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Here is Steves list, typical of a Marine Air assault list

Devastators
Tacticals+SC+Hunter+Razorback
Land Speeders
Scouts+Razorback
Scouts+Razorback
Terminators+Chaplain
Strike Cruiser
Thunderhawk
Thunderhawk

Titan/Air Third
Warhound
Warhound
Thunderbolts

Ideally choosing corners to cut down deployment options, the list has several ways to alpha strike key formations (eg suppressing AA) paving the way for THawks to launch and recover strike formations. However, it also requires carefull handling to maximise the strike potential while attempting to minimise retaliation. . . . and that is down to player skill.


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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:38 am 
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I have a question. Not trying to be a doosh but most of you guys are from the UK and have epicUK used at tournaments? why does it matter so much to you guys if it changed to try and balance the australian scene? Are there other places that have a large scene that are posting here and have an interest?

Not trying be a doosh pointing that out again just asking a genuine question i could be wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:43 am 
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The North East US group has a vested interest in the NetEA lists, as does the Euro scene. I'd counter your questuon with why balance the list for your style when that can change? So you nerf the Eldar now and then people start bringing air assaults lists, the butterfly effect then kicks in.

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