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Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them

 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:33 am 
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Yeah i wrote itt on my way back from melb yeah they do i was confusing it with jump packs that recently got corrected o

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:33 am 
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We played a game last night of Biel tan vs emporers children (both epicUK) and we felt that while nothing is really OP in the Biel tan they do seem to get some units cheaper than they perhaps should.

We felt that 175 for disrupt artillery is maybe a little cheap, so maybe 200 or 225 for night spinners (I didn't check the void spinners as I'm still working on sourcing some figures for the SHTs). And maybe 50 points for the avatar? He ate a Subjugator (I think, it was the shooty Slaanesh titan anyway) and just seemed a bit too effective for a free unit.

Overall it was a tough fight. Noise Marines don't care if you beat em by 1 or by 10 they still won't bloody die ha!


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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:53 am 
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so spot on with the avatar. hey your 300 point formation i just took it off for free.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:32 am 
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Apart from in Wave Serpent builds I find the Avatar of minimal use. Without WS mounted guardians its difficult to get it within range of a useful target, all your opponent has to do is stay 21cm from any guardians and its assault power is negated. Don't want to lose a warhound, don't leave it in the wrong place.
50pts for a CC unit that needs a 150pt formation to deploy it (or a 350pt to do it effectively), only stays 1 turn and can't contest objectives - I'd never take it unless in a WS build

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:44 am 
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I'd say the avatar earns a points value in roughly 1 in 4 games. I do like to include mounted or storm serpent guardians to make him at least have a chance of being useful but more often than not he ends up as a zoc-blocker (obviously not a very good one).

Not sure what you were asking about scouts? You mean biel tan use of scouts and overwatch? The thing is you can't have everything screened and overwatched, as eldar you need to be working to your own game plan to win in my experience. Eldar don't actually have all that many good overwatch formations, and to be frank if your foot guardians are sat in the deployment zone on overwatch screened by rangers then as an opponent I'm pretty happy about it. Scorpions on overwatch are a bit of a nightmare though for some armies, but again if they are on overwatch then they are not running around getting involved in other pointy eared shenanigans.

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 Post subject: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:11 pm 
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Steve54 wrote:
Apart from in Wave Serpent builds I find the Avatar of minimal use. Without WS mounted guardians its difficult to get it within range of a useful target, all your opponent has to do is stay 21cm from any guardians and its assault power is negated. Don't want to lose a warhound, don't leave it in the wrong place.
50pts for a CC unit that needs a 150pt formation to deploy it (or a 350pt to do it effectively), only stays 1 turn and can't contest objectives - I'd never take it unless in a WS build


Totally agree. I get quite a lot of mileage out of the avatar with augmented guardians (wraithguard and wraithlords) but that's a 475 point unit, plus then you need a delivery system so another 300 points (storm serpent and wraithgate) so that's 775 points. It's great when it hits as you can knock out an enemy unit with the avatar + support fire and then the guardians but its blooming expensive and pretty easily neutralised by say pin point attacks and good use of scouts.

On the subject of scout screens, a well plotted spaceship and dev drop combo can easily break/strip out ranger screens and then leave the devs free to knock out aa etc.

I rarely use nightspinners - they're too vulnerable to being plinked and broken and don't have the long range to hide at the back of the board though I know Ginger's had some joy with spamming them.

Lastly, I love seeing solitary units of guardians trundling towards me to deploy the avatar. They're prime early doors assault targets and if you're opponent only has one 2 units killing all the farseers is very viable!

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:33 pm 
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After seeing them defeat NetEA AMTL, and hearing about how they defeated some other powerful lists like Knights, Necrons and I think even Tau, the Feral Orks list used at Castle Assault makes Ferals a little bit OP.

Core formations with fearless and inspiring command units Warlord and Nobz, backed up by large mobs of cheap troop units mounted on their 6DC War Engine walker transport Orkasauraus's which have very nasty cc attacks. The 4 or 5 of these taken were backed up by a large formation of vehicles most of which had AA, then add in the formation (massive size mob) that had 3 steam gargants. Each gargant had 2 x 2DC artillery. Combined they put out a 12DC artillery attack. There were the many Boarboy mobz, and to finish the list there were a lot of throw away units at the back that had cheaper grot artillery and wild boyz.

I am sure others remember more than I do, as I only saw the tail end of one battle, and heard a lot about it from others.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 1:02 pm 
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Steve54 wrote:
stay 21cm from any guardians


Does the EUK Avatar have to be placed within 5cm of them? In NetEA and Swordwind it was 15cm from a Farseer. So 31cm, but same point.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 1:08 pm 
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My opponent had marched his Questor + Subjugator to threaten my blitz. My barebones guardians were blitzguarding and managed to break the fighty one with a ff assault at the end of turn 2, then summoned the avatar who chinned the shooty titan during the triple retain on the opening of turn 3.

My struggle during that game was killing off his fearless stuff. His BTS was still alive with one fearless stand at the end...


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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:10 pm 
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Dave wrote:
Steve54 wrote:
stay 21cm from any guardians


Does the EUK Avatar have to be placed within 5cm of them? In NetEA and Swordwind it was 15cm from a Farseer. So 31cm, but same point.

No I was thinking of daemons and positioning the Avatar for a combined assault, the point is the same though.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:37 pm 
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I tried the Cancon winning list on Thursday against dptdexys Codex SM- a list that's won tournaments and came 6th yesterday at FSA. Something like strike cruiser, landing craft, 2 x thawks, 2 x terminators - 1 with SC, 1 with Chaplain, 2 x scouts, devs in pods, 2 x tbolts and pred Annihilators with hunter.

I took it that the Eldar list played much like a list I've used in the past http://epic-uk.co.uk/ukepicachampionshi ... d=81&aid=4 with rangers screening the shooty formations clumped round AA with the spears and guardians responding to formations that overreached trying to get through the screen.
Dptdexys knows how to set up a spaceship so put the objectives spread out at the edges and near the midline to make it difficult to screen with the rangers. I deployed with a fairly full screen with units spread as much as possible so the barrage would only hit 2 main formations wherever it went.
The barrage hit a shining spear formation (killing 4 including the Autarch, broke the night spinners with 1 kill and killed a ranger opening a gap in the screen. Drop pod didn't even need the screen removed as it dropped outside where the ZoC would have been, retained and broke a falcon formation. I used the void spinners and there were various other activations including the devs being wiped out by the guardians.
Then Dave brought on the LC, it landed 46cm away from the 2nd falcon formation (so outside the AA bubble) and the preds unloaded within 5cm so they were then <45cm from the falcons and therefore in range - falcons destroyed and all AA gone.

I managed to hold it to 0-2 courtesy of getting to go first turns 2+3 but the loss of all AA meant the tbolts and thawks could do what they want all game.

As I posted above I used to run something similar - rangers screened 2 void spinners, 2 falcons and prisms then vampire aspects dealt with any formations that came forward to get through the screen. It used to be very effective but has become less so as players have learned to deal with it in a few ways
- spaceships (not just SM ones) are really popular in the UK and this present problems with the small formations and poor saves of Eldar. Barrage and drop podding devs have no real defence for the Eldar, ranger screens are too easily dealt with or bypassed.
- as part of above opponents have learned to be more aggressive. If elder get to do what they want then they are great but get at them, get BMs on etc and they fade away
- part of that is players recognising that the most important task on turn 1 regardless of if they have pods or not is to kill the rangers. Then turn 2 the opponent can threaten and disrupt the spinners, falcons etc.

I'd regard the wave serpent build as the more powerful at the moment.

The game I played confirmed my view of Spears as well - situationally brilliant but not all rounders. Unless your opponent presents you with a RA target within 35cm then they aren't that great. On top of that they present a very vulnerable target as they can't get into cover. The only times I'd ever use them is to make mounted aspects cheaper by having 1 or 2 in a formation

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:58 pm 
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Guys, I did wonder whether it would be worth adding a new thread to cover the above style of discussion Ideally this would contain a quick summary for each Race, Codex etc written by experienced players / tournament winners etc. It would be entitled

    RACES; their Strategies, strengths and weaknesses.

What do you think?


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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:21 am 
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u can add 45cm to that 21cm because 99% of the time eldar will out activate you. march drop strat 4 boom. and if you do get the strat roll your forced to either let it engage or move that formation away or FF it. so for the free unit you just wasted your strat roll.


So when i play them i have to keep 76 away from guardians, try and stay 56cm away from spears because if they set up for next turn they have a neat 105cm march to do so. you cant escape it.

do you guys have battle reports of games with pics?

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:29 am 
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Not with my eldar as I'm still assembling and painting it so most of the vehicles are proxies at the mo. And we play with epicUK lists so I'm not sure how useful they'd be for you. But we can do if they'd help.

My mates got me the eldar for Christmas, now they whinge every time I bring em out due to "stupid eldar"... Anything to improve their bad reputation!


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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:35 am 
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we need to get some games going from uk to aus to teach us what we are doing wrong. id love for some of you guys to play mics eldar :P



Edit: id love to see what the difference is between our games or if we are just going about it wrong.

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