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Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them

 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:38 pm 
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I'd still lose, Steve ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:44 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
Whatever my opponent brings... That's always OP ;D

This ^^ and Black Legion

They have the combination of alpha strike, very good WE and some nasty special rule.

I suppose a bit like the Eldar ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:48 pm 
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Dave wrote:
Ya, 4 Fire Storms would be a deterrent for that list but I'd assume they be a priority target to get the transports down. Either that or just say screw it and ram an LC right up their barrels.

Yup, a LC full of predators (which I often take) would halve their AA in one swoop, assuming it wasn't already neutered by a spacecraft barrage first. Thunderhawks follow on and pick targets almost at leisure.

I'd be interested in playing this list to see if there's something I'm missing.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:51 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Dave wrote:
Ya, 4 Fire Storms would be a deterrent for that list but I'd assume they be a priority target to get the transports down. Either that or just say screw it and ram an LC right up their barrels.

Yup, a LC full of predators (which I often take) would halve their AA in one swoop, assuming it wasn't already neutered by a spacecraft barrage first. Thunderhawks follow on and pick targets almost at leisure.



The LC/Preds combo rarely has to take AA from Firestorms before possibly taking out a Falcon formation.


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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:44 am 
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Steve54 wrote:
I tried it last night and it's ok in our meta but certainly not a powerful build.

So do we have battle report coming of the game...pretty please...
Evil and Chaos wrote:
I'd be interested in playing this list to see if there's something I'm missing.

Battle report of the game would be great, please..
Dave wrote:
Curious how the 'nid list did. Is that player here?

Looks like they came fourth and I don't think the player part of taccom...

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:20 am 
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You realise this is only going to end one way right?! Its sounds a lot like the Ashes is coming to epic!!!

Seriously though, there's got to be something going here and I'd guess it's a combination of straight out meta and those f**king terrain rules. I'd have to agree though, bat reps would really be appreciated - backing it up with data and all that. We're heading into "pics or it didn't happen" territory...


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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:23 am 
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More light reading

http://d6addiction.blogspot.com.au/2017 ... l-tan.html

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:36 am 
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I have ask the Australia community to do batreps, showing their issues..and I have gotten nothing..and begin the eldar AC, I need to listen to all sides and understand all sides..In that I have been discussing the BT list with the Eldar Sub-AC's,Tiny Tim and few others, for the last month roughly, with changes in mind, but like I said I'm trying to get data and when you are relining on someones word.....It hard to get a complete picture..that why I ask for Batrep for..

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:24 am 
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I know steve took activation notes from his game the other day, and I got a few pics, he's at a tournament today so we'll get our heads together soon and upload it all :)

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:59 pm 
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I'm sure in the right hands eldar lists do get an easier time, though hard to quantify. I don't like to say OP, rather that some lists are easier or harder to win with against certain other lists.

That said I don't think the spears biel tan list posted is all that great - not bad but not the pinnacle IMHO. With eldar, although you have extremely high flexibility in what to field, you always have to make sacrifices. I found the description of the threats the list poses a little overblown.

For instance shining spears winning strategy on turn one. Well, firstly spears cannot assault anything but garrisons turn 1. In fact the list has no alpha strike capability at all and relatively limited ability to threaten assaults across wide areas (which most other eldar builds excel at). The plus side for a spears build is they have the SC on the board, which is a common sacrifice for other builds, but the downside is they have less impact and are easier to destroy than other aspects due to low numbers and mounted making use of terrain much harder.

Secondly foot guardians are very restricted in what they can do - terribly easy to kill unless in cover, and slow so not very good avatar delivery devices as they have to start in the deployment zone and move to where the cover is, so are quite easy to avoid.

Thirdly scorpions are not a very efficient unit points wise, though possibly underused in the UK meta. Probably due to only 2 shots and being very susceptible to spaceships, BMs, and many other units that can either shoot or assault.

Fourthly 4 firestorms is no help against air assaults really. It's extremely hard to keep falcons alive and unsurpressed, especially if you want to actually shoot with them.

I think the list would really struggle against marines, possibly horde armies too (not enough shots for decisive firefights and often those armies are better in CC than spears).

But still, it's largely nitpicking - think eldar definitely have many more good builds than other armies which makes them quite competitive.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:18 pm 
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Underpowered armies: ulani, vanaheim, alaitoc, yme loc, possibly world eaters (the only chaos list that isn't awesome).

However I think many armies are less 'competitive' - not underpowered but just have issues with more opponents or such like. For instance it's a bit harder for tau to win big against a fairly large range of opponents. And IMO lots of lists only have a few optimal builds which makes them appear underpowered. Guard probably fall into that category. Interestingly though plenty of other armies only have a few good builds but because those builds are hard to counter appear overpowered.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:02 pm 
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As a non-tourney player for EA one thing that may be interesting to ponder is if BT is especially good at building an 'all-comers' list for a really wide variety of opponents and builds? When a tournament uses a single list format (there's other types like steamroller for example) that may mean the BT is especially well suited, perhaps? For instance, in a friendly game or testing, it's generally known "I'm playing against Eldar" (even though we try to not know build and list too if possible as to make it harder to tailor). So that being that case, maybe that aspect of needing to play 4,5,6 players with widely differing builds/list isn't readily apparent?

I mean it's pretty obvious there's some really good players inUK and in AU and that might just make it go from really hard to beat to no chance?

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:52 pm 
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Quote:
mounted making use of terrain much harder.


Related to Oz players allowing vehicles to touch terrain and gain a cover save without needing to take a dangerous terrain test... do they do the same for Mounted Infantry like the Shining Spears?

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:34 am 
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Also with all the chaos and drop podding and air assult marines.

Do you guys use scouts to screen your units? One activation to come down then 2nd to take out a scout screen then its eldars turn to wreck anything hasnt activated that dropped. If you do it later in the game then wont things be on overwatch? Air assault marines. Kk they can get passed the screen but what are they going to assault well. The army just pops up? So its 550 points to have 4 3+ FF and 2 4+ FF how are you going to take out the AA so you dont cop a blast coming in? A good player will have them set up so its super hard to suppress and take out.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:32 am 
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Norto wrote:
Vehicles need to take a dt to jump in cover but spears dont they are infantry.

Also with all the chaos and drop podding and air assult marines.

Do you guys use scouts to screen your units? One activation to come down then 2nd to take out a scout screen then its eldars turn to wreck anything hasnt activated that dropped. If you do it later in the game then wont things be on overwatch? Air assault marines. Kk they can get passed the screen but what are they going to assault well. The army just pops up? So its 550 points to have 4 3+ FF and 2 4+ FF how are you going to take out the AA so you dont cop a blast coming in? A good player will have them set up so its super hard to suppress and take out.



Normally they do still take a dangerous terrain role Norto. Shinning spears are INF but they are "Mounted" and therefore take a terrain role if they want to take advantage of cover. It's how it should be played at our tournaments


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