Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 185 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13  Next

Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them

 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:13 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5477
Location: London, UK
Thanks Jimmy.

Another thought, could people in Australia try an alternative tournament approach, where each battle is fought twice, with the players swapping armies ?

I believe the majority of tournaments in Australia are two day events which would allow for six games, or three such paired battles, and if nothing else people might learn how to use their own army better (and possibly even how to beat an 'OP' army :D ).

Note, this would be less useful in the UK where the majority are single day events.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: merging got bugged, moving in progress please ignore no2
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:44 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2004 6:42 pm
Posts: 3305
Location: West Yorkshire, UK
jimmyzimms wrote:
I mean could BT core to support ratio be tightened up and not even affect 90% of winner builds? Absolutely.
Does it NEED 3:1 ratio? I mean BT is all about hard hitting Aspects. They should be a huge amount of the army so having one formation and taking lots of SoV (3) and/or a buttload (6) of Voi Spinners is probably offkilter to fluff at a minimum and likely (lack of) theme in BT as well. They should be able to have them but perhaps not as much ;)

Tweaking BT list to allow only 2:1 support choices instead of 3:1 sounds a simple change worth considering.
Anything that keeps BT focussed on Aspect Warriors should be a food thing.

_________________
My TOEG- Blood Angels and Deathbolts
My Painting Blog- Evil Sunz, Goffs
My Epic trades list


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:12 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:39 pm
Posts: 1963
Location: South Yorkshire
Will swtching to 1:2 for core:support make any difference to the power of the list thats causing this debate.

I'd just make a slight swtch to drop 1 ranger and the night spinners for a Vampire.
Avatar [0pts]
Aspect Warrior Warhost c/w 8 Shining Spear, +Exarch, +Autarch [400pts]
Aspect Warrior Warhost c/w 8 Shining Spear, +Exarch, +Exarch [350pts]
Guardian Warhost c/w 5 Guardians, 1 Farseer, 2 Hvy Wpn Platform [150pts]
Guardian Warhost c/w 5 Guardians, 1 Farseer, 2 Hvy Wpn Platform [150pts]
Ranger Troupe c/w 4 Rangers, [100pts]
Ranger Troupe c/w 4 Rangers [100pts]
Swords of Vaul c/w 3 Falcon, 2 Firestorm [250pts]
Swords of Vaul c/w 3 Falcon, 2 Firestorm [250pts]
Engine of Vaul c/w 1 Scorpion [250pts]
Engine of Vaul c/w 1 Scorpion [250pts]
Engine of Vaul c/w 1 Void Spinner [275pts]
Engine of Vaul c/w 1 Void Spinner [275pts]
Vampire Raider [200pts]

To me it makes it more flexible tactics wise


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:25 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 9210
Location: Manalapan, FL
It's a start that should not even need much debate. We then can zero in on more targeted changes with testing. I suspect there's even some 1:1 possibilities. Basically SoV/EoV and spinners and rangers should be no more present than aspects/guardians after the 1/3 restricted allowance, to be true to BT fluff and theme IMHO. That's a much longer series of confirmations however.

Remember it's not an OP list, though way on the upper side of the scale, mind you; Just is an extremely broad list that could use some theme.

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:36 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:19 am
Posts: 51
What about moving the Guardian Warhost to the troupe section and leaving it at 1:3?

Wouldn't that remove the 150 point 'gateway to 3 troupes' and reinforce the theme of Aspects?

Regards

Harry


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:49 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:42 pm
Posts: 693
Location: Bundaberg, QLD, Australia
Both the option have been discussed in the SUB-AC talk that been happening..

1) Changing the support from 3 to 1 to 2 to 1

2) Guardian Warhost to the troupe section and leaving it at 1:3

Thanks for dropping in Harry..

_________________
Regards
Greg

*************************************************

Not against change, so long as it done fairly and no one is left behind....

I'm human and not a !@#$%^# Robot..


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:51 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:43 pm
Posts: 2511
Location: UK
Dropping to 1:2 would definitely encourage me towards the staple double vampire list, where the standard 2 aspect 1 guardian hosts is enough.

Wonder if it could be tweaked a bit to make it so cheap guardians unlock fewer slots than aspects.

You could for example have a guardian + wraith or serpents host, and a naked/support weapon guardian troupe.

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:36 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 9210
Location: Manalapan, FL
2 support per aspect, 1 per guardians. Easy peasy.

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 4:03 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5477
Location: London, UK
umm, these last few posts are really going on to a different topic; whether to change the NetEA Biel Tan list and if so, how.

Perhaps someone can move the relevant posts over to the Biel Tan list issues thread


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:34 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 9210
Location: Manalapan, FL
Yeah good point Ginger. Apoc (or other uber mod), can we slice off these bottom posts to the indicated thread?

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:09 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:04 pm
Posts: 5737
Location: UK
Only CS can do this merge/topic move.
I can cut them from this topic, but the target thread is in the NetEA Eldar sub and only NetEA ACs and CS have access there (but not of them are mods in this sub!), so i cant move them where we need them.

_________________
AFK with real life, still checking PMs


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:30 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:41 pm
Posts: 390
Location: London
Well back on topic, the epic UK site has amassed quite a lot of game data on the big 4, hundreds of tournament games.

Whats noticeable is that BTEldar are well ahead of the 4. If you take overall win% minus loss% you get

Cx Marines -5%
Gh Orks -13%
SL Guard -10%
BT Eldar +8%

The marines, orks and SL have between them a deficit (wins minus losses) of about 140 games. The beneficiaries seem to be fairly split between BT Eldar, Black legion, SFreaks and DKOK.

Trouble is this doesn't tell you any trends over time caused by the occasional tweaks to lists. Any change made now even quite radically would take a long time to make a big impact on the total data for the big 4 lists.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:02 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20871
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
Quote:
Trouble is this doesn't tell you any trends over time caused by the occasional tweaks to lists.

Could there be another factor missing too: The "noob" factor.

Would it be fair to say that the first three lists are often the default choice of newcomers to Epic, while Eldar tend to be the choice of someone who's already built and played an army or two?

Ie: The "core 3" will perhaps tend to attract a higher proportion of less skillful players, who'll crash and burn at tournaments a bit more often, skewing the results for those three lists down a bit?

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:12 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:01 pm
Posts: 1501
I also think biel tann have more intuitively good builds which helps new players. Most new player biel tann lists will have aspects, grav tanks, guardians and void spinners which provides a solid core and will play much as you expect (hits hard but is fragile) while a lot of new player marine lists will comprise almost wholly of sub par units (whirlwinds, beefed up tacc cos, Predators, land raiders, maurauders, etc) which then doesn't play as you'd expect (ie doesn't hit very hard, surprisingly fragile etc)

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 4:40 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:42 pm
Posts: 693
Location: Bundaberg, QLD, Australia
Hi All..

Below link, covered some of the item spoken about in the Sub-AC emails..

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=32195

and yes it has Tim's reports covering his games too, from Tournament he went to...interesting read...

_________________
Regards
Greg

*************************************************

Not against change, so long as it done fairly and no one is left behind....

I'm human and not a !@#$%^# Robot..


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 185 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net