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Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them

 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:15 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
I've used my unpainted EUK Skitarii 3 times so far. Won 3 times. Therefore they are the best army and need nerfing. :D


Ooh, interesting what are you running? My attempts were definitely stimied by lack of models. Ffoley had one decent list which was essentially siege masters light but if you're doing that you might as well play regular siege masters!

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:46 pm 
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In the UK meta Biel tan certainly aren't overpowered. I think terrain plays a big part in that but also the number of spaceships and air assaults that we use, both of which are problematic for Biel tan.

My OTT picks would be
Vior'la Tau - tau but with all the weaknesses of Tau systematically removed.
Sautekh Necrons - though I'm not sure if that's changed from when I played against them
NetEA Krieg - EUK Krieg is good but the NetEA version is pretty much unstoppable

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:23 pm 
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Whatever my opponent brings... That's always OP ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:40 pm 
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RugII wrote:
The NetEA Eldar lists are slightly more powerful than the EUK equivalent which maybe why there isn't a problem with Eldar in the UK?


Having just compared them out of curiosity I actually think it's the other way around. Here's what I found (am I missing anything?):

  • NetEA has 2 Falcons at +100 not +75 for transport upgrades
  • NetEA allows 2-3 Wraithguard, not just 3, they're still +50 each
  • NetEA has extra EoVs at +250 not +200
  • NetEA allows 5-6 Falcons, not just 5, and can replace all of them with Fire Prisms
  • EUK has a separate Fire Prism formation, these are significantly more expensive than NetEA but they're AA units in EUK (see below) and thus hard to compare
  • NetEA allows 4-6 War Walkers, not just 6
  • NetEA has Phoenix at 325, not 300

  • EUK Exarachs are a step above NetEA with their weapon abilities
  • NetEA Howling Banshees have Infiltrator
  • Fire Prism is 60cm 4/2 L in NetEA, 75 4/4/5 L in EUK
  • Cobra D-Cannon is 30cm 2BP MW or 30cm MW4+ IC TK(D3+1) in NetEA, while 30cm 3BP MW or 30cm MW3+ IC TK(D6) in EUK

  • EUK support formations can buy "formation leader" for +25 points

Beyond a bit of flexibility for numbers of units I think NetEA is the weaker of the two, points-wise. That being the case, I do find it curious that they're dominating in AU and not in the UK. That leads to think it's something from this bag:

  • The AU Eldar players are really good and belong on the top of the heap
  • The NetEA Eldar list is OP and the EUK that much more so, but EUK has compensated with more more powerful other lists (unlikely, given how close that majority of the other core lists are to NetEA ones)
  • The UK Eldar players aren't their best players
  • The UK players have the perfidious Eldar's number and know how to fight against them

My guess, it's likely the first and the last. Player experience accounts for a lot in Epic. A good example of this is to play a game against a good player and then switch armies and play again. In the second game, my money's on the guy who won the first one.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:45 pm 
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StevekCole wrote:
Ooh, interesting what are you running? My attempts were definitely stimied by lack of models. Ffoley had one decent list which was essentially siege masters light but if you're doing that you might as well play regular siege masters!

Something like this was one of the lists.

SKITARII [400]
- Minoris (3x Twin-Hydra Autocannons), Magos

SKITARII [275]

SKITARII [275]

SENTRY [150]

SENTRY [150]

SENTRY [150]

ORDINATUS MINORIS [325]
Minoris (Turbo-laser Destructor), Minoris (Volcano Cannon)

ORDINATUS MINORIS [300]
2 Minoris (Apocalypse Missile Launcher)

ORDINATUS MINORIS [325]
Minoris (Plasma Destructor), Minoris (Plasma Cannon)

SIX PALADIN KNIGHTS [500]

THUNDERBOLT SQUADRON [150]
2 Thunderbolt Fighter-Bombers



I also tried out a Gorgonish list with less Minorises, and reinforced Sentry formations. They make excellent overwatch garrisons.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:52 pm 
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Dave wrote:
Having just compared them out of curiosity I actually think it's the other way around. Here's what I found (am I missing anything?):


Eldar Howling Banshee Aspect Warriors have Infiltrator in the Netea List..that's all you missed I believe..

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:55 pm 
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What style of Eldar list is winning the most in Oz?

Ranged? Engagement? Infantry? Tanks?

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:05 pm 
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PFE200 wrote:
Eldar Howling Banshee Aspect Warriors have Infiltrator in the Netea List..that's all you missed I believe..


Ah, that's right. Crap, ignore all my previous points then. :P

I'm making at joke at the expense of Howling Banshees. Apologies to them.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:06 pm 
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The uber list there at the moment seems to be 2 x falcons, 2 x spears, 2 x guardians, 2 x scorpions, 2 x void spinners, 2 x rangers and night spinners.
I tried it last night and it's ok in our meta but certainly not a powerful build. The amount of spaceships and aircraft in the UK gives it real issues. Plus the differences in when vehicle can claim cover and LoS interpretations are significant.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:10 pm 
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With 0-4 Fire Storms being the only AA I can see aircraft being an issue. What percentage of aircraft are in most AU games?

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:12 pm 
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Yeah without fighter cover that list looks fairly weak against any typical Marine list I'd tend to bring to the table I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:21 pm 
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Dave wrote:
With 0-4 Fire Storms being the only AA I can see aircraft being an issue. What percentage of aircraft are in most AU games?


Below link has all the list that went to cancon 2017 and they are not order, so go through and read

http://d6addiction.blogspot.com.au/2017 ... -woot.html

Taccom thread..

viewtopic.php?f=88&t=32082

The following link has the results from cancon 2017 almost at the bottom of the page...

http://d6addiction.blogspot.com.au/2017 ... -2017.html

Taccom thread

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=32138

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:52 pm 
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So breaking that down by activation count (SCs and Avatars are "+1"s for me) and formations of AC we have:

Quote:
13+1
11+1
11+2 (raider)
11 (tbolt)
10 (2 hell talons)
7 (2 fighta bomma)
12+1 (2 orca, 1 ax-1-0)
11+1 (2 barracuda, 1 tiger shark, sun sharks)
8+1 (nightwings)
9+1 (vampire)
10 (marauders, thawk)
10 (thawk)
10+1 (2 thawk, tbolt)
9 (thawk, tbolt)
8 (tbolt)
9 (tbolt)
7 (tbolt)
9 (tbolt)
8 (tbolt)
9
10 (2 tbolt)
9 (tbolt)
10
9 (hell talon)
7 (2 fighta bomma)
8 (bomma)
11


I would have expected the Tau list with 2 barracuda to give it a good go (and maybe the two thawk list if they could get down out of AA) but other than that there's nothing there that 4 Fire Storms can't handle. Compared to what I'm used to, I think there's certainly fewer aircraft flying around in games over there. By way of comparison, my marine list usually has 3 tbolt formations and a thawk, Scarik has played games with 6 formations to Tbolts (he's crazy though), but two AC formations is the norm for the most part here.

Between its activation count and ability to deal with WEs (with 4 Warlords and plenty of Gargants you guys definitely play with more big stuff than we do) I think it has an easier time than it could have. If a good player's at the reigns I can also see why it's dominating.

Curious how the 'nid list did. Is that player here?

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 Post subject: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:05 pm 
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It's not uncommon to see 12 activation marine lists with 2 bolts, 2 thunderbricks a landing craft and a spaceship in the UK. That would certainly worries me when I run only double firestorms as aa. I don't think the difference can be accounted for in player quality - we've got guys here running eldar who have played over 200 tournament games.

I'm also loving the fact that Ginger started this thread to give voice to his black legion/thousand sons dislike and its turned all anti eldar who are his favourite army! As a result of this thread the only eldar army allowed in the next CLWC league will be yme locc while all chaos armies will get an extra 1000pts to make for the handicap ;-)

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Last edited by StevekCole on Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:11 pm 
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Ya, 4 Fire Storms would be a deterrent for that list but I'd assume they be a priority target to get the transports down. Either that or just say screw it and ram an LC right up their barrels.

Black Legion has a nasty alpha-strike ability with their Terminators, Dreadclaws and daemons. With the bigger formations and expendable troops their staying power is much better than Marines once they're down.

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