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Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them

 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:22 am 
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I was out of the community for a long period when EpicUK was set up so I cannot say first hand and others should correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that the EpicUK lists was borne of something slightly different to the current situation (or at least as well as). That is, that the purposes of the two organisations are somewhat different. As has been mentioned in this thread, NetEA was not originally about tournament play, and this shows in the many lists and diverse interests of the community. It produced very few Approved lists beyond the original GW ones until much later. The very open and democratic style of NetEA is a double edged sword when it comes to getting lists to a certain state.

So it's probably too simplistic to characterise Epic UK as the UK folks 'taking their ball and going home' (sorry to put it so crudely!) and rather that Epic UK is arguably the first tournament focused community and has many more approved lists, but those lists are often not just (more) balanced but cut down versions and streamlined for quicker tournament play. Since then it is NetEA that has attempted to put more effort into getting lists Approved, but it's important to recognise that this happened later. At least that's my memory anyway - it certainly seems many of the NetEA Approved lists were approved in the last few years.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:26 am 
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Norto wrote:
So its not the list. Its defs the players?
Its very hard for outsiders to judge your situation objectivity, but in the case of E-UK I would suggest this is more probable. If you check the stats of Steve Gulick, Dave Thomas, Tim Hunt etc you will find they all have several hundred tournament games played with a minimum of 11-12 armies, and 20 in Tim's case. In every case their wins exceed their losses by quite a margin. Sure they all have armies they favour which are played more often, but the point is that the armies cannot all be overpowered because these guys win when using them.


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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:39 am 
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Righto

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:26 am 
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Ginger wrote:
Sure they all have armies they favour which are played more often, but the point is that the armies cannot all be overpowered because these guys win when using them.


Hmm, sounds like these guys are clearly overpowered! ;D


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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:22 am 
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Definitely an unfair advantage

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:49 am 
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So Steve who won cancon here last year, Castle Assault last year and Mic who won cancon this year with beil tan plus all the people that posted at the start are just wrong because the UK stats say otherwise.

So we have come to the conclusion beil tan arnt that powerful, you just bombard them with spaceships and air assault them.


They dont need a look at, the UK stats say its not the army its the players.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:10 am 
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Norto wrote:
So Steve who won cancon here last year, Castle Assault last year and Mic who won cancon this year with beil tan plus all the people that posted at the start are just wrong because the UK stats say otherwise.

So we have come to the conclusion beil tan arnt that powerful, you just bombard them with spaceships and air assault them.


They dont need a look at, the UK stats say its not the army its the players.


I don't think anyone is saying that the Oz scene isn't experiencing a problem.

I think the point is more that people are sharing their subjective experience of how Eldar can be beaten, with a view to seeing if the Oz players can try the same strategies - and report back if those strategies work (or not!) in the wider Oz meta / local rules.

At the same time, some UK players are clearly willing to try playing with / against this list style to see if the problem can be replicated.

The Oz concerns are not being ignored.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:00 am 
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I'm more than happy to try playing with our against it. What do the aussie guys think are good/bad match ups for that army?

I'd imagine steel legion good, air assault marines bad? But would be great to get a steer from those who've played with/against it.

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Last edited by StevekCole on Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:11 am 
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I'll put up the batrep from a couple of weeks ago where I used Mic Fairs eldar list against dptdexys SM, have you tried any of the tactics or list builds outlined in this thread against the list?

If I had took a list with no barrage and air assault vs the Mic Fair list my priorities would still be breaking the falcons to allow whatever aircraft I did have to ground attack the EoV and spears - the main thing being to BM the spears. I'd try and advance my ground units in a fairly tight block making it more difficult to clip without risking being hit by support. Any list I take tends to feature 2 scout formations, I'd try and use these as a defensive scout screen so that at the end of turn 1 they screened my advanced ground block to prevent the spears or guardians getting in position.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:22 am 
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I would turn it on its head a bit. Your sample size there is 3. Take a look at the EUK stats yourself. Pick 3 UK tournaments from last year and you could say the same thing about dark angels, or even tau. Biel tan didn't win a single tournament. But do the same exercise the year before and you could equally well cherry pick the results to suggest it's eldar, or steel legion. Theres no denying there's a pattern, but are they all overpowered? Now do the same exercise with player names.

I think you will conclude that, indeed, a pattern appears, but the pattern is not the list, it is the list the winning players chose to bring. It's the same players winning tournaments: Steve, Dave, Tim, Richard etc.

What we're trying to do here is put ourselves in your shoes, and if our tournament results matched yours, would we be saying the same thing? At the moment we probably wouldn't be because the results you cite are so confounded with the player, but we are not saying it cannot be true - it's totally subjective. Many players here probably still feel some armies like necron and krieg are too strong, and it's quite easy to cherry pick the results to 'prove' it - when a good player takes them to a tournament, they frequently win. But as in your case, we just don't have enough data and instead it's a subjective and anecdotal discussion.

Here's the thing: I play biel tan a lot. Over the past 8 years or so, when I playes my regular opponent, I almost always won. When I take them to a tournament, I rarely do much better than mid table and if I'm drawn against Steve or Dave or Richard, I almost always lose. No conclusion can be drawn from that other than they are better players - they have been playing every week for years - thousands of games. Statistically speaking, that confounding factor blows any attempt to deduce list power out of the water.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:23 am 
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carlisimo109 wrote:
Ginger wrote:
Sure they all have armies they favour which are played more often, but the point is that the armies cannot all be overpowered because these guys win when using them.


Hmm, sounds like these guys are clearly overpowered! ;D

Yeah it goes back to the stats I put up early doors. Basically 4/5 guys pass around the winners belt between them regardless of army (though as ginger says there's some they're better with than others) and about once a year one of us muggles sneaks in and wins something when they're not looking (or there)!

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:41 am 
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So with reading the above and chatting to some of the Oz guys I am going to B-T to Counter Attack.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:48 am 
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G'day

First up thanks to the guys posting responses to my question. They were informative and detailed and I appreciate the time and thought you took to write them. It kind of feels like the Australian community has reached a level that you guys found yourselves in roughly a decade ago. Which by my reckoning is not necessarily a bad thing.
It is crystal clear in this thread, and lets say "a couple" of others that there is a divergent of opinions, which i would argue NO ONE IS WRONG.

I do see an Epic AU coming into effect and part of me is excited at the prospect. The other part is shit scared that it will fracture and destroy the local community meaning I will have to go and buy nepolionics and I don't want to buy nepolionics! I feel that list development, tournaments and data collection done via a EPIC AU might even be a more positive way for Australians to contribute to NetEA all the while being able to balance lists according to our own meta. NetEA AC can choose to adopt or use Epic AU lists or ideas the same way in which EPIC UK is used. I would be keen to hear more advice from Epic UK regarding setting up there own model and perhaps pitfalls to watch out for.

As for the issue of are eldar over powered?... irresistible force meets immovable object (you can work out who is who)

Cheers

Mic

P.s Who isn't a little curious about what a international tournament would look like and what could be learnt from it??? Who would be Daniel Larusso and who would get kicked in the face .


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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:56 am 
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Thanks Mic. A really great response
(and I just scrapped 30 mins of reply :D)

I am less sure about the need to write a load of Aussie lists, unless you want to of course ;)
But setting up an Aussie database would be a great start - though it also implies having a common tournament format, so that the data is consistent. I would also strongly advise adopting some mechanism to encourage players to take different armies to tournaments as I said earlier.

Now for a really radical thought - could we try for a global tournament scoring system, used in every tournament that would allow us to capture this data globally? There is a 'paper' version in TacComs somewhere, but technology has moved on to the point where someone could set up a web version.


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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:34 pm 
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You guys should swap lists every once in a while and see how they do in the other side of the world's meta.


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